The infuriating facet of the Epstein affair, for me, is the lack of an outcry about the cause of his death.

[Rafi]

I don't GAS about the files and who is in there, except that anyone that did commit the rape or abuse of a child is held accountable by a court of law.

I never believed he committed suicide for several reasons, and the obvious factors that would lead to a more believable case of homicide are substantiated by the few facts that we do know based on a severely flawed criminal investigation.

I was disappointed to hear Lawrence refer several times on his show tonight about Epstein's suicide. Anyone that has made an attempt to study the circumstances surrounding his last day and the litany of supposed "security lapses", as well as the opinions of the the pathologist who conducted the autopsy and Micheal Baden, who observed it, realizes that this is the real coverup in the Epstein case. Baden is arguably the leading pathologist in the country and he concurred with the autopsy pathologist that homicide was a more likely cause of death than suicide. The so-called investigation was a farce. They did not even interview the other twelve inmates on the same tier as Epstein that night. The film produced is bogus and only points to more malfeasance.

I watched a very interesting and informative interview with Epstein's brother Mark by Don Lemon. The points raised regarding the federal investigation were often startling and appeared to be legitimate. This, at least for me, is where the most important crime and coverup have occurred and a new investigation needs to be initiated by congress.

[H2O Man]

1. Recommended

I think Epstein's death is one of three interesting parts of the story. Who he was, and his relationship with the felon, are the other two. There would not appear to be enough evidence known at this time to know who caused his death.

[MadameButterfly]

5. Not enough evidence but that doesn't mean

we can't make an educated guess about who had the motive and the power to kill him.
I'm not more concerned about the death of Epstein than the thousands and eventually millions of innocent deaths caused by Trump's policies from immigration concentration camps to Medicaid cuts to ending USAID. But maybe an actual hit, if proven, would get people's attention.
I'm guessing it will never be proven.

[RockRaven]

2. The official story is a combo of negligence and incompetence and indifference,

and that should be a scandal by itself.

But even the official story lays bare that America is a totally fucked up, morally degenerate society at this point. Everyone shrugs and moves on, or gets distracted, or never paid attention in the first place.

[usonian]

3. Surprise. Our society is run by mafia rules.

I suppose that's wrong and should be fixed.

Horse's head in the bed.

Horse's ass in the White House.

People wished that the gangsters would kill each other off, but it never happened. Only on Saint Valentine's day, by a handful of police impersonators.

Ya never know.

[JoseBalow]

4. "Wake up, sheeple."

[AZJonnie]

6. I think if there's any conspiracy, it is that he was 'allowed' to commit suicide.

Like, maybe he let it be known he wanted to, and it was facilitated, perhaps on Barr's orders. But I don't buy he was murdered in federal custody in some nefarious 'plot' because he 'knew too much', if that's what you're getting at.

Firstly, no reason to question the integrity or qualifications of Dr. Barbara Sampson, the first-ever female Chief Medical Examiner of NYC, who conducted the autopsy, and declared it suicide, in very unequivocal terms.

Secondly, Michael Baden IS the pathologist that observed the autopsy. There's not 3 people here, there's Sampson and Baden. And he was hired by the Epstein family. And what do families often receive when their loved ones are murdered, but they do not receive when they kill themselves? Hint: it involves the word 'policy'.

Thirdly, 2 days before his suicide, he wrote and signed a brand new will. Consistent with someone planning to kill themself.

Fourthly, "Forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, hired by Epstein's brother, observed the autopsy and later stated that some of the injuries, including three fractures in Epstein's neck, were more consistent with homicidal strangulation than suicide". Sounds similar but that is NOT the same as saying "that homicide was a more likely cause of death than suicide". And "Dr. Sampson strongly disputed Dr. Baden's allegations, affirming that the injuries can be seen in both suicides and homicides, and reiterating her confidence in the original finding of suicide by hanging."

Fifthly, there were no defensive wounds, which would be typical in a homicide situation.

Sixthly, the DoJ Inspector General's report concluded it was suicide. That was Michael E. Horowitz, put in place by Obama, and who remains in that role today. There's really no reason to think that Horowitz would want to cover up the murder of Epstein.

Seventhly, someone in Epstein's shoes had every reason to commit suicide. He was guilty AF, he was busted, disgraced, and life as he knew it was over.

In my view, your assessment flies in the face of Occam's Razor.

[Irish_Dem]

7. Some of your points can be refuted.

It would not be hard to stage a murder to look like a suicide. It is estimated that a small but significant
number of murders are staged as suicides. Certainly professional assassins have the ability to do this.

It is possible to murder someone with a garrote and make it look like suicide.

This is done by placing the victim on his stomach and then garroting the person similar to a hanging.
Then hang the person with the same garrote.

Also if there are two assailants, one person can quickly use chloroform to render the victim unconscious
prior to the garroting. There will be no defensive wounds. Note that to detect chloroform in a body the
autopsy must be immediately performed, and Epstein's autopsy was not done for over a day after his death.

It is obvious that top of the line assassins could stage a crime to look like suicide and fake out everyone.
This would confuse the pathologists and investigators doing the autopsy and crime scene evaluation.
Which is the entire purpose when a crime is staged.

And it is entirely plausible that the federal government was involved. Trump is a ruthless, vicious psychopath,
part of the Epstein sex trafficking ring. And was president of the US with a vested interest in keeping Epstein quiet.
Bill Barr also had links to Epstein who was hired by his father as a teacher, even though he had no college degree.
Epstein was known to be a child predator, and Bill Barr's father had to resign after he hired Epstein.

So we have motive, opportunity, means.

It would be quite naive to not at least consider all possibilities.

[AZJonnie]

9. Okay, it's not impossible

There is some small chance it was murder by very-professional assassins, like something out of a spy movie, and everything went perfectly right for the scheme, with lots of potential points of failure. I think given the bulk of evidence it is much more likely that the dude offed himself. Of course everyone is free to have their own opinions and conjecture on the matter. Put it like this, I'd take a 10-1 odds on a bet on this subject, that would reflect my confidence level accurately.

Also there was no garrote found at the scene, and the ME would've known the cause of death was garroting as opposed to strangulation by bedsheet

[Rafi]

12. It would have been relatively simple.

A couple guards bought. According to two former inmates from that facility, one who stayed in the same cell, suicide would have been difficult. Prisoners were in and out of the tiers all the time. An assassin or two could have easily been brought in as prisoners a few days prior.

[EdmondDantes_]

13. That's not accurate

You'd have to bribe the guards watching, the guards who let him in, guards at restricted access points, guards at the security cameras, whoever controls the security footage and backups. And that's assuming you only bribed people who were willing, because if even one was too honest, then you've got problems.

Then there's people like the doctor who did the autopsy who would have to be fooled or in on the conspiracy theory.

Just because I've seen Ocean's Eleven doesn't mean I can use that as a blueprint for robbing a casino.

[Rafi]

14. Most of the he cameras were not functioning. The "raw" footage was not raw.

The Dr. would just have to yield to pressure from her superiors, which is not uncommon.

[Irish_Dem]

17. I think there would be a way around some of your points.

Perhaps you have a somewhat idealized version of prison life.
Drugs, sex, crimes are prevalent, and the guards look the other way.

Honest prison guards may or may not last long.

It would be easy to install two fake prisoners in a nearby cell.
Guards leave doors open.

Or perhaps two assassins posing as federal agents.

We know the guards monitoring the video mysteriously disappeared as I recall.

Doesn't sound like rocket science.

[EdmondDantes_]

18. No it sounds like you've watched too many movies

You might as well say Martians could have done it or an entity with access to a 4th dimension or someone invisible to cameras. Just because you can dream up a scenario doesn't actually make it reality.

[Irish_Dem]

19. I do work on cold case crime scene staging. It is based on science, data, facts.

It is real.

[Irish_Dem]

16. These points can be refuted as well.

If you look at the points I made in the previous post, I stated the assassins would use
a garrote with the same material used to fake the hanging. So a bedsheet or shirt in this case.

So there would be no garrote at the scene.

We can also assume professional killers would not leave the murder weapon at a crime scene
anyway. Only an amateur killer would make that mistake.

I also stated that a garroting with a bedsheet could be used to mimic a suicide by hanging.
And how that specifically could be done.

Often forensic pathologists are easily mislead by professionals who stage a crime scene.
It happens more than you realize.

I happen to be interested in cold case crime scene staging by the killer.
Who is able to fool police and pathologists quite easily.

I also would not rule out that Trump sent some sort of message to Epstein that made
Epstein kill himself. Or set up conditions along those lines.

I think Trump either arranging the murder or forcing Epstein to kill himself is at least
a 30-40% probability.

[AZJonnie]

21. My mistake, the only thing I've ever heard called a 'garrote' is the wire with the handles

So I thought you meant like put a bedsheet between the wire and neck.

Obviously I disagree that the odds are anywhere near that high, but you've given me food for thought. Interesting hypothetical, cheers

[Irish_Dem]

20. There is something called Threshold Bias.

This happens often when law enforcement comes across a crime and the first impression is the one that sticks with them.
Despite subsequent evidence to the contrary. This is most likely true of small town cops who rarely investigate murders.

And with the public who hear about a crime as well.
They cannot budge off the first impression of how the crime was committed or that it was a suicide or just an accident.

But seasoned LE can be guilty of this as well.

[Rafi]

8. Guesswork

You have no idea about Epstein's state of mind.
A new will would be a prudent move in his predicament.
He had a bail hearing set that might have gotten him out of prison and under house arrest.
There were no defensive wounds because it is likely Epstein was drugged before the murder
No doubt Epstein would have been one of the few people murdered because they knew too much
Epstein had no family except his brother
Bill Barr

[AZJonnie]

10. Lol, the only thing I said that was "guesswork" was speculating there could be a life insurance policy

Other than that, I stated the known facts of the case, along with reasons for why the man could easily have been despondent. I concluded the bulk of the known facts suggest suicide as the more likely of the two scenarios.

What you are asserting is far closer to guesswork my friend

[Rafi]

11. There are no "facts" from the Bill Barr investigation other than that he is dead.

He could just as easily not been despondent, in fact, according to his lawyer he wasn't.

[AZJonnie]

15. "He could just as easily not been despondent"

I can't believe this is a real conversation I'm actually having RN.