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thucythucy

(8,940 posts)
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 09:46 AM Thursday

The Rape of Lucretia and the Fall of the House of Trump?

Last edited Thu Jul 24, 2025, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Trigger warning: sexual assault/suicide/Trump

It would be quite the comeuppance, quite the ironic but exquisitely just outcome if the fallout from the Epstein case were to lead to the collapse of the Trump cult and the fall of his benighted administration.

But then you have to go back in history quite a ways to find another instance of sexual violence against a single woman leading to the overthrow of a government. The one and only example I can think of would be the Rape of Lucretia, in the sixth century BC, which more or less directly resulted in the fall of the Roman monarchy and the institution of the Roman Republic.

The story has been recounted by some of the greatest minds in literature, and alluded to by many others. In English these include both Geoffrey Chaucer and William Shakespeare, who used the story as the subject of their poems, anglicizing her name to “Lucrece.” In Italian Lucretia appears as a character in Dante’s Inferno.

Rome at this time was governed by a king, much like most other city states of the Mediterranean world. The Tarquins had ruled for centuries, through some seven generations, but they over time had become more and more arbitrary, more and more tyrannical. According to Livy, Tarquinius Superbus was particularly despotic—“superbus” in Latin meaning “arrogant, proud”—while his son Sextus Tarquinius or Tarquin was equally arrogant and dissolute.

“Under Tarquin the Proud brutality and decadence flourished. Tarquin did not hesitate to use violence to maintain power. He disrespected the Senate and most Roman traditions. While he and his relatives devoted themselves to pleasure, his henchmen carried out campaigns of political murder to remove any and all opposition.”

The Rape of Lucretia and the Birth of the Roman Republic
http://www.vta-romae.com/lucretia.html.

Lucretia was the daughter of a Roman magistrate and the wife of a prominent Roman general. She and her husband Collatinus were known for their devotion to each other, and both were respected and well liked by the public. While Collatinus was away on a military campaign, Sextus Tarquinius snuck into Lucretia's apartment and raped her, threatening to kill her if she didn’t comply and keep his crime a secret. After he left Lucretia instead sent messengers to her husband and father, asking them to each bring some other member of the elite whose word would be trusted by the citizenry. She told them what had happened and made them all swear that Tarquin be punished, even if a member of the royal family. And then, before the eyes of her shocked onlookers, she produced a knife and stabbed herself to death.

Her body was taken to the Forum, where her husband, father, and the other notables told both the Senate and the crowd what Tarquin had done. Seeing Lucretia’s body and hearing what had happened, the Senators and citizens in general were so outraged that they determined to end the rule of the Tarquins and drive them from the city. Hearing of the rage of the people, the Tarquins fled for their lives. The Roman monarchy was then abolished and a republic formed in its place, which lasted until the advent of Caesar Augustus some four centuries later.

I can’t think of another instance in history where violence against a single woman, or even a generation of women, has resulted in the complete overthrow of a tyranny and a fundamental restructuring of government. And given the depth of MAGA delusions and the control Trump and his enablers have over the media and all three branches of government, I tend to doubt that the Epstein case will have the same effect, even if documents are released that directly and convincingly connect Trump to the sexual abuse of underage girls. Which I suppose is a statement about how far the re-election of Trump has undermined my faith in the strength of our democracy and the sagacity and even the basic decency of the American people. It is indeed sad to think that the people of 21st century America—“the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave”--seem to care less about the morality of those in their government than people living in a late Bronze Age city state some 2500 years ago.

Then again, this just might turn enough of his base against him to significantly lessen Trump’s grip on our body politic. I’ve been hoping against hope that Trump would end up subject to a well-deserved prison sentence, but at this point I’d quite happily settle for his exile, along with that of the smarmiest members of his family.

I think of these lines penned so many centuries ago:

“Courageous Roman, do not steep thy heart
In such [un]relenting dew of lamentations,
But kneel with me and help to bear thy part
To rouse our Roman gods with invocations
That they will [not] suffer these abominations,
Since Rome herself in them doth stand disgraced….

[And] when they had sworn to this advisèd doom,
They did conclude to bear dead Lucrece thence,
To show her bleeding body [throughout all] Rome,
And so to publish Tarquin’s foul offense,
Which being done with speedy diligence,
The Romans with applause did give consent
To Tarquin’s everlasting banishment.”

William Shakespeare, “The Rape of Lucrece.”

19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Rape of Lucretia and the Fall of the House of Trump? (Original Post) thucythucy Thursday OP
Beautiful writing, thucy. Easterncedar Thursday #1
Thank you and best wishes. nt thucythucy Thursday #2
We need a Lucius Junius Brutus. Aristus Thursday #3
Yes indeed. thucythucy Thursday #5
Yes. Aristus Thursday #10
Have you ever seen the movie version thucythucy Thursday #12
Yes. A long time ago. Aristus Thursday #13
You hit this out of the park malaise Thursday #4
Good to see you as well thucythucy Thursday #6
And this comes to mind Aviation Pro Thursday #7
If only someone had a record of who was with whom JMCKUSICK Thursday #8
Yes, and if only this had been available thucythucy Thursday #9
Lol JMCKUSICK Thursday #11
Thanks for this write up! Lucky Luciano Thursday #14
My understanding is that it's thought there is some basis in fact thucythucy Thursday #17
Thank you Lucky Luciano Thursday #19
Great post. Highly recommended. Pinback Thursday #15
I love history. Thanks so much for sharing this, thucythucy. ❤️ littlemissmartypants Thursday #16
Kick for the evening crowd n/t malaise Thursday #18

thucythucy

(8,940 posts)
5. Yes indeed.
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 11:02 AM
Thursday

I first learned of his story reading "Julius Caesar" with its references to him as ancester of the "Et tu" Brutus.

And didn't I read somewhere that John Wilkes Booth played Brutus in an 1860s staging of that play?

Best wishes.

Aristus

(70,489 posts)
10. Yes.
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 11:12 AM
Thursday

That is undoubtedly where he got the idea that assassinating Lincoln would be a Republic-saving act. Even though Marcus Junius Brutus no doubt hastened the end of the Roman Republic by assassinating Caesar.

thucythucy

(8,940 posts)
12. Have you ever seen the movie version
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 11:16 AM
Thursday

in which Marlon Brando plays Marc Antony? His "Friends Romans countrymen" speech is amazing.

Aristus

(70,489 posts)
13. Yes. A long time ago.
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 11:21 AM
Thursday

Probably the best thing about the film, except maybe John Gielgud as Cassius.

There has never really been a truly good film rendition of Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar." The Charleton Heston version was atrocious. The BBC's version was serviceable, but not exceptional. Of course, it's not really one of his better plays. Some critic once joked that the only reason they teach the play in the schools is because it's short and has no sex.

malaise

(287,164 posts)
4. You hit this out of the park
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 10:50 AM
Thursday

Rec rec rec
So good to see you.

It would be quite the comeuppance, quite the ironic but exquisitely just outcome if the fallout from the Epstein case were to lead to the collapse of the Trump cult and the fall of his benighted administration.

thucythucy

(8,940 posts)
6. Good to see you as well
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 11:03 AM
Thursday

and thank you for the kind words.

Best wishes to you and yours.

JMCKUSICK

(3,284 posts)
8. If only someone had a record of who was with whom
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 11:08 AM
Thursday

When and where with some written corroboration.
Sorry to rehash an old overused line, but lock them up.

Lucky Luciano

(11,681 posts)
14. Thanks for this write up!
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 11:54 AM
Thursday

I think a lot of the very ancient history of Livy is considered just stories of legend and often included a lot of embellishments to create a mystique and Roman pride.

I think when the Gauls sacked Rome in the early 4th century BCE (390-387 ish), so much of the recorded history at the time was lost which is sad. I bet a lot of the Etruscan history was lost there too…though I know emporer Claudius wrote up a history of the Etruscans, but that too is lost.

Do you know how true this story of Lucretia is?

thucythucy

(8,940 posts)
17. My understanding is that it's thought there is some basis in fact
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 03:46 PM
Thursday

for the story, though there are no contemporary accounts that are known. Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are the earlieast accounts we have, whch are both some 500 years after the fact. It's thought though that they based their accounts on earlier texts which are now lost.

To quote from the link: "The evidence points to the historical existence of a woman named Lucretia and an event that played a critical part in the downfall of the monarchy. However, specific details are debatable and vary depending on the writer.... According to modern sources, Lucretia's narrative is considered a part of Roman mythohistory."

I don't suppose we'll ever be able to tease out what part is myth and what part might be actual history, unless there's some amazing future find--some text dating much closer the the era in question--that will settle the question.

I first knew the story from the Shakespeare poem, and with all this recent news I went back to read it again, thinking about some of the similiarities and hoping the outcome might be the same.

Best wishes--

Pinback

(13,339 posts)
15. Great post. Highly recommended.
Thu Jul 24, 2025, 12:02 PM
Thursday

Some fundamental truths do carry across centuries. We are in a particularly benighted era, but it is still reasonable to hope that some instances of moral turpitude — particularly pedophilia — carry a stigma that transcends ideology. (Witness the collapse of Roy Moore in Alabama.)

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