It is very easy to say that soldiers could refuse to obey unlawful orders. They have to think it over very, very careful

[Norrrm]

It is very easy to say that soldiers could refuse to obey unlawful orders. They have
to think it over very, very carefully. Peer pressure would be very strong. While it could
take years to battle it out in courts, trial and punishment would be almost
instantaneous. Loss of career.
Cadet bone spurs and drunkard Hegseth had no qualms or problems getting rid of generals who did not toe the line.

[walkingman]

1. Career?- this is not the military of the past. It is compromised at the highest levels.

Instead of protecting our freedoms, it is more like doing the dirty work for some psychos.

[paleotn]

5. Evidence of that?

[walkingman]

8. Policing American streets (domestic law enforcement), invading sovereign nations,

torture, enforcing immigration laws, are a few and as far as career, I think Sen. Mark Kelly is a good example.

[paleotn]

9. They're not doing domestic law enforcement. They can't.

They're wandering around doing very little.

And you're still not providing evidence of your premise. And grossly misunderstanding the OPs point.

[intheflow]

10. ICE is part of the military.

It's may not be organized under the Department of Defense, but it is under the National Security Council, a division of the Executive Branch, which controls both ICE and DoD.

https://www.usgovernmentmanual.gov/ReadLibraryItem.ashx?SFN=Myz95sTyO4rJRM/nhIRwSw==&SF=VHhnJrOeEAnGaa/rtk/JOg==

[paleotn]

11. That's a stretch. So much of a stretch I can see through it.

Responder was referring to the Nat Guard and so was I. Not ICE.

[Wifes husband]

13. That is not true

Using that logic, the Department of Agriculture is part of the military. So is NASA.

[intheflow]

14. Don't be ridiculous.

The Department of Agriculture isn't an organization included in the Nat'l Security Council. However, the DHS is an active member, and they help maintain the kill list of suspected domestic terrorists that Obama set up in 2009.

From Wikipedia:

Structure of the United States National Security Council[28]
Chairman: President
Regular attendees:
Vice President, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of Energy, Secretary of the Treasury, Attorney General, Secretary of Homeland Security, Ambassador to the United Nations, White House Chief of Staff, National Security Advisor
Military advisor (and regular attendee): Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff[29]
Intelligence advisor (and regular attendee): Director of National Intelligence[29]
Drug policy advisor: Director of National Drug Control Policy
Regular attendees:
Deputy National Security Advisor, Homeland Security Advisor
Additional participants:
White House Counsel, Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Assistant to the President for Economic Policy, United States Trade Representative, Director of the Office of Management and Budget

I'd post a direct link to the government's page on the US National Security Council page, but it doesn't exist for the current administration. The citation for this list is from the Biden WH archives. But I can't imagine that DHS has become less of a military arm of the government under Trump and Miller.

[EdmondDantes_]

2. It's also unclear what would be declared an unlawful order

Congress has let presidents of both parties use the military under the authority of the 2002 authorization against a lot of "terrorists". And there's to 90 days a president has to use the military before Congress has to weigh in.

[gladium et scutum]

4. What constitutes an unlawful order

will be determined by your General Court Marshal board.

[niyad]

6. Court Martial

[MarineCombatEngineer]

17. It's Courts Martial, not court marshal

but you're correct, it would be determined at a General Courts Martial and that is a very high bar to prove that it was an illegal order that was refused.

[paleotn]

3. Depends on the order. And the situation. That's the rub.

We tend to think in clear cut, extreme cases, where the choice to disobey is obvious. The real world is rarely like that. The Venezuela attack was really no different than Papa Bush's Panama invasion. Both were deemed violations of the UN charter and international law. From an individual service member's point of view, both were murky. To your point, the repercussions of that in such a murky situation can be serious.

Greenland may be a test case. Whole different ballgame than Venezuela and much of the brass isn't particularly pleased with this regime of shitheads. Not a stretch to say some of them want to shoot Whisky Pete in the face 3 times.

[doc03]

7. I can't see a Private refusing an order. When I was 19 years old and drafted

you were treated like dirt, and you were forced to do whatever they told you. If someone didn't
comply or measure up you were ridiculed in front of everyone and sometimes the DI would turn other soldiers
against a person resulting in a Blanket Party. It is up the big brass to refuse an unlawful order and most of them
have two goals their next promotion and their pension. If there are any that refuse an order while Trump is
President their career is over, and their pension is gone. Look what they are doing to Mark Kelly and he just made a
video stating the rules the military are to follow. Trump has used the law to fuck over people his entire life. He files a
frivolous lawsuit and the victim ends up broke paying for legal expenses. I don't understand how the legal system
has permitted that for a half century, shouldn't that be called contempt of court or something.

[intheflow]

12. They might lose their jobs, sure, but they won't lose their pensions.

The generals might lose them for a time, but they could certainly bring legal action to restore their pension for refusing to participate in Trump's illegal bullshit. Since everyone except Republicans understands that everything Trump does is illegal, when they're out of power again, a lot of this performative crap will be overturned.

[Kaleva]

16. Most active duty haven't put in enough time to get a pension

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. plz won't someone think of the troops