I had a discussion with a right-winger last night about The Felon

[lastlib]

Last edited Tue Jan 20, 2026, 01:07 PM - Edit history (1)

When I made a statement that the Jan 6 Traitor was a fascist, this guy said, "Well, you shouldn't call him a fascist just because you don't like him."

I looked at him and responded, "I was a Political Science major in college, I've *studied* fascism. I've read Hannah Arendt; I've read Ernst Nolte; I've read Robert Paxton, Lawrence Britt, and Ruth Ben-Ghiat. If it walks like a duck, flies like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Donald. tRump. is a. F'ing. Fascist. Pee-Ree-Odd." He shook his head and walked away. IDK if I convinced him, or just made him mad, and really don't care. I used the term in an academic sense, not just as a pejorative. IOW, I stated a provable fact; he couldn't deal with it.

[biophile]

1. But when I call him a fascist, I'm also doing it because I don't like him!

In addition to the fact that it’s true!

[TexLaProgressive]

41. To be more accurate

He is the definition of a fascist but is an asshole.My whole family are anti-fascists and we don’t like assholes no matter their philosophical bent.

[SheltieLover]

2. You're one of those "elitists" like Hillary, you read & think on purpose

Ty for trying!

[thomski64]

3. ...I haven't done this yet...

but I'm fast approaching the point, in these kinds of conversations, where I say "And
Fuck You for voting for this!"

[markodochartaigh]

4. I think that Jonathan Swift said it best.

"Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired."

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/10/reason-out/

[The Blue Flower]

5. You used big words

He didn't understand any of them.

[Metaphorical]

6. You likely lost him at "I've read ..."

Most right-wingers are not deep thinkers. They want to ignore the inconsistencies in their life, the cognitive dissonance. In their own minds, they are the good guys, defending their institutions and their president against the rabble and the rabble-rousers. They want stability in their beliefs because they see the world as black and white, and they are always on the side of white. Reading challenges those beliefs, forces them to see the world in more subtle shades of grey; this is also why they don't like most forms of humour except the most violent.

Trump does not appeal to deep thinkers. He wraps himself in the norms of the status quo even as he is busy disassembling that same status quo. This is why his most ardent followers like him - he shows them that they don't have to be intelligent to be successful, and that it is all right to be cruel, thuggish, petty, mean, and vindictive. He justifies their beliefs, encourages them even further down this path. He teaches that you can get away with anything, but only if you are Donald Trump. They want to be him, and that means NOT thinking.

That is how fascists are made.

[lastlib]

7. Wish I could give this a couple dozen recs!

You are EXACTLY on the dot here--as I have said, if tRumpers could be reasoned with, they wouldn't be tRumpers. And you perfectly explained WHY. Thinking is above their pay grade. As for the guy I was talking with, if his thoughts were water, you could wade across them without getting your shoes wet.

[area51]

36. "Trump does not appeal to deep thinkers"

Trump did say that smart people don't like him

[Aristus]

8. Shouldn't have bothered.

He's an oxygen-thief. No higher cognitive faculties of any kind. I'm not entirely sure what makes him human.

But in any case, don't expend your time and intelligence on such a waste.

[lastlib]

9. I wasn't going to waste any more time or energy on him....

...but I wanted him to know that he wasn't going to win an argument.

[Hope22]

10. You lost him at the word college! They resent all educated beings.

Great explanation though! Thank you for trying! 💗

[Fil1957]

11. Good on you for trying but specifics would have been nice. This guy probably never even heard of the people you

mentioned. He may not even know what a Poly Sci major is. It's like your trying to explain quantum theory to a duck.

On other hand, if you gave specific examples of DJT's depredations (and there are many), he probably still wouldn't be able to deal with it, but at least you'd have a chance of breaking through, even if only a small one.

P.S. Stay away from words that have Norman French roots, and try to only use words with Anglo Saxon roots when you talk to these people.

[Zackzzzz]

16. I have always loved to look up the origins of words.

I just never thought to compare Norman French root vs Anglo Saxon roots.
I never thought to notice.
That was a really funny joke.

[Fil1957]

18. It's actually not a joke. Anglo-Saxon rooted words are typically shorter and simpler. Norman French words on the other

hand are often longer, more abstract, and formal.

For example this sentence with Anglo Saxon roots: "I feel joy when we work together".

Now, same sentence when using Norman French roots: "I feel satisfaction when we work in conjunction with one another".

Norman French was the language of the upper class in England after 1066. Even though that was almost a thousand years ago, there is still the echo of that class structure in our language today here in America.

[Zackzzzz]

27. Yes. And Thank you for your examples.

In school we were taught to speak in Norman French
because it would appear we had a higher IQ.
We weren't taught the depth of what you are teaching me today, AS vs NF.

Just look at all those syllables, words, time, but stilted.
I prefer, "I feel joy when we work together".

Now I'm off for a spot of tea.

[Celerity]

30. no satisfaction.......

[reACTIONary]

35. mutton, sheep....

... what's the diff?

[Puppyjive]

12. They don't know the definition of fascism.

There were protestors in our local veterans parade. The people at the American Legion said they were fascists. I told them that I must be one too, because I would have been right there with them in the parade. I'm considering ending my membership with the American Legion. They are mostly Trumpers and I can't hardly be around them anymore.

[kimbutgar]

13. I would have asked him if he knew the definition of fascism

And if he couldn’t answer then he is uniformed and can’t say it’s because you don’t like the 🍊🐖 ( sorry I just can’t write his name and use icons )

There’s a guy on Facebook who posts videos of him driving a motorcycle with a large fuck the 🍊🐖💩 and when magaloons confront him he asks them to name the three branches of our government rarely any of them can answer that question. And they storm off in anger much like the guy you talked with!

[maxsolomon]

14. My method is now to engage them; ask them to explain themselves.

Remember, they think they're smarter than us. Ask them what makes a Fascist. Ask them why Trump isn't one.

Most every MAGAt is going to run out of facts and logic and veer into emotion or Conspiracy within 2 sentences.

[BaronChocula]

15. Evidence you had an impact

He walked away instead of retorting with something that began with "well Biden..." This is telling since the cult (which is what it is) is programmed to Gish gallop with lies and false equivalences when presented with political truths they dislike. In not doing this, it sounds like he's in the process of becoming dispirited. And you contributed to that trend.

[Stargleamer]

17. Creator of Godwin's Law Says the Hitler Comparison [to the POS] Is Apt

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/12/19/godwins-law-trump-hitler-00132427

Godwin's law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one" but nonetheless, the creator of Godwin's Law, Mike Godwin, says the comparison of the POS to Hitler is appropriate.

[Fil1957]

19. I've heard of one way that sometimes works is to ask the Maga why they voted for him and listen as best you can without

being judgemental. Then ask them how they think he's doing now etc., and then engage in a "friendly debate". This has a higher success rate than other methods.

[Grokenstein]

20. If he had replied, I can only imagine...

"Well, you may have read...uh...all that, but I watch FOXNews. So there! Chetmake!"

[live love laugh]

21. Can they ever deal with it? Their brains are thoroughly washed.

[flashman13]

22. For a long time I avoided using the word fascist or Nazi. But if it walks, quacks, and flies like a Nazi, it's a Nazi.

I'll mention one other thing. Years ago I read a book that explained that a true mark of fascism was when you can't tell where business ends and where government begins. That has been a hallmark of Trumpism.

[LilElf70]

23. I can almost

guarantee, the POS had no clue what you said.

[highplainsdem]

24. I have a Republican relative who's more and more unhappy with Trump. Another Trumper in the family

said Trump's complaint to the PM of Norway was "just a joke" but the less brainwashed Republican relative is unhappy with a lot of what Trump is doing, and how he's doing it. She's more a country club Republican (very well off) than a RW media addict like the other one, but it's always encouraging to see cracks appearing in Trump's support.

[Montauk6]

25. No fair!!! Facts and truth have a liberal bias!

[PatrickforB]

26. My question is always how did so many Americans get brainwashed enough to support Trump in the first place.

I am a working economist. By that I mean, I have been a member of the Professional Managerial Class for nearly 40 years.

I have a sad truth to relate here. Or perhaps a few sad truths. These are truths that have caused these people to respond to Trump as positively as they have, and in fact become part of the Fox News - Trump cult.

These things may make some who read them here feel a bit uncomfortable, because I am trying to look at life through the eyes of someone who decided to upset the apple cart and vote Trump in '16. I can't help that, because in the course of my work I sometimes speak to these people.

Trump got and kept so many followers because he once had charisma. His rise began with the election of Barack Obama in '08. He sat back from '09 - '16 and threw spitwads at Obama - the birther thing.

Okay - now this is the truly important part. I call it KITCHEN TABLE:
One of the things Trump discovered during those years that he used in his campaign was the populist message that the system is rigged.

It is. Rigged, I mean. I think of myself. I volunteered for Obama's campaign because he campaigned on HEALTH CARE. So I made calls and did other things to support his campaigns in '08 and '12. Our healthcare system in this country sucks. It is broken. Everyone knows, unless they work in the insurance, for-profit healthcare and pharma industries, that the right thing to do is universal healthcare - Medicare for everyone. But Obama took that off the table. And, no, don't tell me we didn't have the votes. I don't care. I care about me getting nickel and dimed to death in a huge Wall Street - billionaire squeeze. Because THAT is what has happened.

Cable TV costs out the nose.
Groceries cost more and you get less, not to mention lots of trans fats and stuff.
Publicly traded companies lay off people routinely to boost short term profits.
Publicly traded companies boost shareholder PROFITS by offshoring, costing Americans more jobs.

This country lost upwards of 8 million jobs through NAFTA, which decimated much of the so-called rust belt.
Healthcare costs are through the roof, and before ACA, insurance companies could just arbitrarily deny claims and leave you to go bankrupt. ACA was an improvement, but not much because it still resulted in the insurance, pharma and for-profit health care providers raising prices at rates far exceeding inflation. Because they could, and because it enhanced shareholder PROFITS at our expense. As a result of Obama and Democrats not beating the drum for Medicare for all Americans, I now have $10K in HEALTHCARE DEBT. That infuriates me every time I think about it. Because the Wall Street greed heads are systematically SCREWING me and my family.

Our kids and grandkids don't have it much better either. They have STUDENT DEBT because the government decided to get in the loan business and cut PELL grants. In addition, we have a bunch of Wall Street greedheads buying up houses driving prices through the roof to the point where my 45 year old (oldest) daughter lives with us and has for years. And yes, she has a good job.

In the meantime, the Democratic Party has tried to be all things to all people and allowed culture war wedges to be driven. We got the reputation that we care more about (and don't shoot me - I'm relating some of the things I have heard in conversations) climate change, gay rights, transgender rights and giving stuff to undocumented immigrants (that is a lie, but it is out there). We also have been painted with the brush of excessive regulation. Let me give an example. In my state, Colorado, the Democratic supermajority passed the FAMLI act requiring businesses to fund paid leave, which is not funded under the federal FMLA. Problem is, like most of these regulations that seem a good idea, they end up hurting everyday working schmucks who own small businesses. If you have a company that has maybe 12 employees, you have to pay into this FAMLI fund and run your business without a key employee who may be out 12 weeks.

I think you get the idea. One of the main reasons I now no longer donate to Dem candidates as much as I did is because THIS PARTY IS NOT ADDRESSING THE STUFF I CARE ABOUT - THE KITCHEN TABLE ISSUES.

You know what the US government could do for me? Universal healthcare. Free college. Childcare subsidies. And yeah, I know the Republicans are responsible for fighting this tooth and nail since forever, and that high powered lobbyists exist to take Wall Street's part on things like healthcare. I know that. But FOX news doesn't tell their watchers that. All most Americans know is they are getting squeezed and every month seems to have unintended expenditures that cause us to have to juggle just to pay the bills.

And I did everything right - no criminal record, graduated from college and grad school, worked in positions of progressive responsibility and all that. And right now I have LESS PURCHASING POWER THAN I DID BACK IN THE '90s. Seriously. I'm getting screwed by these reptilian Wall Street and billionaire types to the point where I have to go paycheck to paycheck sometimes. And now we are being told that SOCIAL SECURITY is at risk of not being able to pay 100% by 2032.

That is BULLSHIT. I contributed to that social insurance program check by check for 40 years and Congress has allowed this??????????

See what I mean?

The federal government DID NOT address these things. Not under Obama and under Biden we kept getting told how the economy is doing oh-so-well, but I STILL HAVE $10K IN HEALTH CARE DEBT.

That's why. Yeah, I know Trump lies through his teeth and actually represents these Wall Street reptiles. I get that. But my question then, and it is a fair question, is why don't I get some relief when the Dems are in power? I know why and so do you - that nice Rupert Murdoch at Fox. But most people who are struggling to make ends meet don't care about political nuance. They just wonder why the government has gotten so gridlocked that it literally cannot function.

That is why you get turds like Curtis Yarvin and Vance spouting this dictator bullshit. People YEARN for a leader who can actually wade in and give us some relief. Unfortunately Trump is not that person. But neither was Biden or Obama if we're being fair. The whole federal government has become a corrupt shitshow that cannot get hardly anything done and IT ISN'T HELPING ME.

Fascism is horrible and that is what we have now, but we have it because the Dems didn't pound on kitchen table issues and like it or not are perceived as the 'woke' party. What that word means in MAGAt parlance is shorthand for caring more about climate change and transgender sports and bathroom stuff than HEALTHCARE and other kitchen table issues people like me have to deal with daily.

Sorry, but that is why we have so many who spout fascism. They want a strongman who can get things done. Unfortunately we have Trumpy doing the WRONG THINGS, for sure, but this is why. Until we get some people with the charisma of an AOC, a Crockett, a Bernie, and a Newsom, we ain't getting anywhere. And look at Newsom - he is trying to end a proposed wealth tax because he wants to keep billionaire parasites in CA.

Seriously, to many younger people, the government seems so broken, and they are so frustrated with economic issues that there is a growing feeling that the whole thing needs to be torn down and rebuilt. Now, I don't think like that, but I do understand some guy who dropped out in high school, lives in Louisiana or Missippi or rural Alabama and has few options except grinding poverty. This is why racist dog whistles have worked so well for the Republicans.

Anyway, long story short, I am getting screwed to the wall at my kitchen table as are many Americans. And talking about it like Dems do is ineffective because our party has not been able to get rid of the Citizens United corruption and we just laid down for McConnell's treasonous act in holding up Obamas judicial and other appointments. That fucking lizard screwed us across the board, abetted by the new far-right Supreme Court. Wall Street gets more. Billionaires get more. The middle class gets screwed. That is how it is and until our party can field a charismatic firebrand like an FDR or JFK, we won't have that kind of credibility with voters. And if you think I'm wrong, look at the growth of unaffiliated voters at the expense of both parties.

Sorry if I pissed off some people on here but we HAVE TO get rid of these institutionalists because until our party can SUCCESSFULLY address the healthcare and affordable college issues we will continue to lose market share in terms of voting. And couple that with gerrymandering and Bannon/Miller/Noem flooding the zone with shit, we are now in chaos.

We did NOT hold the center.

[3Hotdogs]

33. I gotta disagree with you on Obama had the votes. He did until Ted Kennedy died.

I believe it was Senator John Tester who put the final nail in the coffin.

[PatrickforB]

43. I hear you and you are not wrong. But why didn't Obama do what he did AND ALSO say ACA was a half measure until

the people force Congress and the President to implement universal healthcare?

See, that is my issue. Obama was our first African American president, and I felt very safe with him in the White House, granted. He's a good and moral man. And he was a good president.

And yes, I do know about the Newtster and the GOP leaders meeting in that DC steakhouse the very night of O's inauguration and agreeing they would demand their rank and file congresscritters to oppose O and the Dems in lockstep. I knew about that, and so doubtless did Obama and his people. I get that.

But it took Bernie Sanders in the years preceeding 2016 to shift the Overton Window on Medicare for All Americans. He made that into a meme. Obama and the Dems COULD have been doing that all along and going nose to nose publicly with the healthcare greed-PROFIT-lobby. Because there's not a single American who is not offended by what we have in healthcare now. Not a single one. We all KNOW how shitty, rationed and expensive this system is, and how bean counters screw us as a matter of corporate policy so that institutional investors can maximize profits.

And yes, I know many Americans have much of their retirement in these funds. I get that. But Dems could also add that to their message. It could go like this:

You are getting screwed at your kitchen table by Wall Street financiers and billionaires.
They are squeezing the middle class dry so they can have just a little more.
Republicans are their shills and the reason you suffer is they are in bed with these reptiles.
Citizens United allows corporate corruption to keep Congress from working for you!
And Fox News and talk radio have been lying to you for forty years plus because they can.
You want Social Security saved? You want Medicare for all? Then vote us in and give us a supermajority!
Wall Street is NOT Main Street, and Republicans are the party of Wall Street.
We are the party of the middle class, the party of ALL Americans!

Problem is, if we campaign on that, then we MUST stand and deliver when we are voted in, because we will be. People want this. They will give us another chance, particularly if we develop some spine and some charisma. That means we MUST get rid of our institutionalists and elect people in the center not those that keep donors happy with the status quo because they FEAR not being reelected. Because NO ONE on Main Street and I mean NO ONE, is happy with the status quo.

So is this practical? It may have been as late as the 1990s when we had Third Way instead of economic populism. Third Way is NOT the champion of the middle class, it is the champion of the status quo. Letting the rich get richer while squeezing us with offshoring jobs. We need a TRUE government OF, BY and FOR the people, NOT of, by and for Wall Street and billionaires because that is what we have now.

It may well be too late for us, though. Because of Trump and the GOP. Trump has nearly pulled it down around our knees and we will likely find ourselves under the iron boot of bankers who want us to be taxed heavily without getting any benefits so we can pay down the national debt. No shit. You think that won't happen? Look at what the International Monetary Fund has done to weaker countries when they get in debt. They impose austerity so the people have to pay and pay and pay, but get nothing in return to enrich the fucking bankers.

We are likely soon to be at this point, and from there the only reasonable way forward for AMERICA's MIDDLE CLASS is to reneg on the national debt, because that is the only way recovery can happen. Because we owe $35 trillion. We fund our overdraft every year by selling treasury bills and NOW FOREIGN INVESTORS ARE SELLING THEM OFF. This means this debt is now being called in and we are ALREADY heavily taxed. The MIDDLE CLASS - individual taxpayers - pay ~80%+ of the government's tax revenue and corporations around 8%. They have been getting a free ride for a long time courtesy of lobbyists and institutionalists in both parties.

See what I mean. We are about to suffer prodigiously, and our once proud, "Oh it can't happen here!" will go by the wayside fast because it IS now happening.

Too late? Maybe. But never say never. We NEED TO ELECT PEOPLE WHO THE CORPORATE MEDIA LABELS 'FAR LEFT'. People like AOC, Crockett and other progressives. Because mark my words - AOC is NOT fucking radical. She's a New Deal Democrat. Because the New Deal was progressivism. We need to elect people that will pull Wall Street's fangs and do stuff that actually BUILDS a strong middle class.

Lastly, I will speak of the moral compass. Not some religious dogma - but simply basic compassion for others. Decency. Treating other people like we want to be treated. We need leaders WHO ACTUALLY SAY THAT STUFF.

What will happen? Who knows? Our species has repeatedly failed in learning to control our greed, anger, pride, envy, lust, gluttony and spiritual laziness. We don't even have a fucking culture. We have an ECONOMY. Its fucking sick. And it is up to us, the rank and file Dems AND independents, to turn this around. Let us elect people who are beholden to US not Wall Street reptiles and their lizardlike lobbyists. Fuck them. We are here and they are all in the DC Beltway. We need people who REMEMBER OUR NEEDS when they get there.

Tell me I'm wrong.

[popsdenver]

28. All of us

have to quit saying just TRUMP.........It is the Entire Republican CABAL that is making it happen, not just Trump.

In fact, if it weren't for all of them, Trump wouldn't have lasted a day into his first term, nor be "Installed" for his second term.......

Trump is a great distraction, and it gives the Republican totally Owned/Operated Mass Media something to do daily, so they don't have to report reality of what is Factually going on......

TRUMP IS NO MORE IN CHARGE, THAN WBUSH WAS, OR REAGAN WAS, OR AS TRUMP SUPPOSEDLY IS...........
THEY WERE/ARE PAWNS OR PUPPETS OF THE REPUBLICAN CRIMINAL SYNDICATE.....

[Buddyzbuddy]

29. They avoid the truth like it's death coming for them.

[madamesilverspurs]

31. While I lack your erudition,

I seem to be pretty adept at getting Trumpers to mutter "Oh, you think you're soooo smart!" as they stomp away. Rather sad that they apparently never learned the art of conversation.


.

[3Hotdogs]

34. I believe the beginning of fascism in the country was in the 1820's, with the gub'mint subsidizing the building of

canals and soon after, railroads.

Now it is just more obvious to those who look for it. Trump just turned it into a science.

[rampartd]

37. "fascist" is a hard thing to pin down

i think he fits eco's 14 characteristics, to some degree, in 12 of 14 points. probably more than franco or even pinochet.

i've been using the more general "authoritarian" but still not sure if the cult nature might make maga closer to kirkpatrick's def of "totalitarian"

Umberto Eco's 14 common features of fascism include:

The Cult of Tradition: A belief in the past and a rejection of modernity.
The Rejection of Modernity: A disdain for the modern world and its values.
The Cult of Action: A glorification of violence and action over reflection.
Disagreement is Treason: A belief that dissent is a betrayal of the nation.
Fear of Difference: An obsession with a perceived threat from outsiders.
Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class: Exploiting the fears and frustrations of the middle class.
Obsession with a Plot: A belief in conspiracies against the nation.
The Enemy is Both Strong and Weak: The enemy is portrayed as powerful yet cowardly.
Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy: A rejection of peace as a viable option.
Contempt for the Weak: A disdain for those who are perceived as weak or vulnerable.
Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero: A glorification of heroism and sacrifice.
Machismo and Weaponry: An emphasis on masculinity and militarism.
Selective Populism: A populist approach that excludes certain groups.
Newspeak: The use of language to manipulate and control thought.

[Grins]

38. Better? "All right. - prove me wrong!"

[Joinfortmill]

39. And this is where we are...

I'm not certain many of these people can be persuaded by facts and truth. Some will see the light when they and their loved ones are negatively impacted, some will not, even then.

To repeat the motto of their First Lady, 'I Don't Care Do U'. Fuck 'Em.

[calimary]

45. Well, nobody likes to have to admit they were wrong.

Or that they were royally - and quite willingly - HAD.

You know that old saying: “denial isn’t just a river in Egypt.”

[D_Master81]

40. It doesn't matter

It doesn’t matter what evidence you give them they will just say it’s “Trump Derangement Stndrome” that has you hating everything he does. I’ve had people say to me “he could cure cancer and you’d still hate him”. My only reply is “I will decide when he actually cured cancer. For now he’s only cutting cancer research grants”.

[Zambero]

46. Trump Normalization Syndrome

Indeed, derangement is evident with those who use projection while attempting to keep his "legitimacy" and "normalcy" afloat.

[House of Roberts]

42. Short answer to the moron.

I don’t call him a fascist because I dislike him, I dislike him because he is a fascist!

[LPBBEAR]

44. One of the biggest flaws in Democracy...

is idiots have the right to vote too.