If the notion of masculinity is to be reconsidered...

[Bonobo]

It should be done by men, not by feminists. Masculinity is not a dirty word and men need to take back the concept of "strength" and "power" from its purely negative associations and remember that for thousands of years it has also been men's strength that protected and maintained the safety of our loved ones --male strength is not just an expression of violence that some seem to make it.

I would never consider it a "Men's issue" to discuss whether the concept of femininity should be reconsidered. Naturally anyone is free to discuss what they want, but I think men's issues should be discussing how men deal with things and women's should be with how women deal with things. Demanding change from each other is both futile and flame-seeking.

[Denninmi]

1. Strength and power are just tools, how they're used is a choice.

Good or bad, it's up to each to decide how they want to go about things in life.

[Warren DeMontague]

2. Frankly, I think the lecturing and hectoring gets old.

I'm of the old school of thinking that, at the end of the day, growth is an internal process; it works that way for people like it does for nations- (which renders, except in the most extreme of circumstances, the notion of "liberating" a country through invasion and war ridiculous) ... you don't get the goose out of the bottle, the goose has to get itself out.

[MadrasT]

3. I don't think feminists should be telling men what "masculinity" should look like.

The aspect of this that I think is valid for feminists to discuss is that women need to be aware of their expectations about what they think "masculinity" should look like, and give men space to express themselves in a variety of ways. (And I am speaking of all women, not just feminists.)

Every man is unique and there is no right way to be masculine (or to "be a man&quot either.

(I really even hate the words "feminine" and "masculine" but that is a rant for another day.)

If men wanted to talk about how the concept of femininity should be reconsidered, and the tone of that discussion was along the lines of "we need to give women more space to not feel like they are required to be soft, warm, nurturing, caring, pretty, gentle, and delicate" (the intent being to give women space to be released from the stereotypical definitions of femininity), I would think that was a great conversation for men to have.

Demanding change is surely futile and counterproductive, we are in full agreement there. But conversations that are primarily about allowing space for others to change don't seem wrong to me.

GOOD: "Gender role changes are OK, let's talk about that" makes me

BAD: "Gender role changes are required, let's talk about that" makes me

[Warren DeMontague]

7. I agree with everything you've written in this post.

I, for one, support the right of everyone to self-actualize as they see fit; to define themselves as opposed to letting themselves be defined, etc.

Your phrasing is right on target.

[redqueen]

9. From the article which kicked this... response... off:

“To stop violence, you need to prevent it from happening,” said Somsouk Sananikone, a civil society activist from Laos, speaking after a recent training workshop in Bangkok, where he was one of about 30 civil society participants from eight Asian and Pacific nations, including Indonesia, Fiji and Mongolia. The event was organized by Partners for Prevention, a U.N. interagency program aimed at ending gender-based violence.

...

The question is, “How are you supposed to be a man in society?” asked James Lang, the program coordinator of Partners for Prevention , in a recent interview in Bangkok.

...

At the Partners for Prevention event in Bangkok, Mr. Otgonbaatar and others discussed strategies on how to counter bullying and how to mobilize society. But the challenges run deeper than that. As in Mongolia and Laos, the vocabulary of gender is differently expressed, where it exists at all, he said.

...

I guess the problem that a few people seem to have is that the article is even being discussed by feminists.

Which is ironic, considering.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. Ever hear the phrase "it's not about you"?

Please don't bring external drama into this group. Bonobo's OP can be debated on its own merits.

[redqueen]

12. A thread about an article titled "Changing the Notion of Masculinity" is posted in a feminist group

and shortly after, this thread titled "If the notion of masculinity is to be reconsidered..." is posted here, with the subject being how awful it is for feminists to discuss the idea of the need for masculinity to be reconsidered.

Yes, pure coincidence I guess. Mea culpa.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Like I said, please don't bring external drama into this group.

If one's only purpose in coming into the group is to look for fights, they should probably avoid the group.

[redqueen]

14. All my previous post did was explain the reason for the misunderstanding.

Mea culpa for that, too, I guess.

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. It's not a misunderstanding. It's a difference of opinion.

Like Warren said, Bonobo's OP stands on its own.

It is presumptuous for american feminists to use a meeting in Bangkok as an justification to diagnose and treat the disease of american masculinity.

Beyond that, it isn't about you.

[redqueen]

16. Feminists aren't doing that. American men are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1114111

[Warren DeMontague]

18. According to you.

And thank you, again, for coming into the group and advising us on how you believe men ought to inventory and repair the myriad defects we apparently all have, by trying to kick a 10 month old thread that you, again, posted.

[redqueen]

19. I didn't kick a thread. I shared a link to a video of American men talking about what they call

a crisis.

So no, it isn't just "according to me", the evidence is right there. And in many other countries as well.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Oh, a man said it, that must mean it's true about men.

Sort of like how every fart that comes out of the mouth of Phylis Shlafly on the topic of women is authoritatively true, based on the fact that she's got ovaries.

[redqueen]

21. Re-read the posts.

Jeff said: "It is presumptuous for american feminists to use a meeting in Bangkok as an justification to diagnose and treat the disease of american masculinity."

It follows logically that my next post was a contradiction of his assertion that it is "American feminists" who are diagnosing masculinity.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. If that's the case, my opinion as a man that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with men as a

category, ought to trump your opinion that there is.

Right?

But I'm sorry the thread that you posted here, 10 months ago, did not garner the reception and reaction you hoped for.

[redqueen]

23. You're mixing up words. No one said anything was "wrong with *men*"...

What these men are critiquing is masculinity. If you disagree with that, fine.

My only point in this thread is that it is, indeed, MEN doing the critiquing.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. That's awfully generous of you, to allow that someone might disagree with a broad "critique" of

"masculinity". Gee, Thanks!

I realize that some people seem to feel they're placed on Earth to "critique" the behavior or thoughts or activities of others, my point in the thread is that, like the Zen riddle, the goose gets itself out of the bottle. Furthermore, I don't feel the video you linked to, 10 months ago, was or is particularly relevant to the ACTUAL experience of being an ACTUAL man, which in my experience differs greatly from the 2 dimensional imaginary puppet shows, populated by strawmen, stereotypes, and imagination-figments which seem to crop up in these overwrought, hand-wringing "sociological critiques".

Edit: Correction, 13 Months ago.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. Exactly right. Exactly, exactly right.

Using a men's advocacy group to identify what's wrong with women and decide how it should be fixed would not pass muster in any rational world.

[Gore1FL]

5. Except in a few state legislatures. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Good point.

It's not okay there, either. Especially not.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Even this.

Republicans in congress have very clear ideas of what femininity is (albeit perverted, distorted, stifling and archaic) and they want to promote their view of it as a virtue.

On the other hand, most feminists don't visualize "masculinity" in positive terms at all. Their views on the topic are just as distorted, but are instead negative.

Republicans visualize a Norman Rockwell painting representing femininity as a goal. Feminists visualize a petri dish with an anthrax culture representing masculinity as a disease.

For the same reason that we should never elect someone who says that "government can't do anything well", no man should accept a definition of masculinity from a person who thinks it's an epithet.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

8. Heck, it's even funnier considering....

....I saw the phrase "You don't get to define me" used just the other day....

And I agree with that statement....I wish others could take heed.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. You don't get to define me, but I am *entitled* to define you!

Entitled!!!!!