No, All Palestinians Don't Back Hamas' Depravity. And All Israelis Don't Back Ben-Gvir's Bloodthirsty Vengeance

[Israeli]

When Hamas releasing the bodies of four Israeli hostages – a grandfather, a mother and her two young children – is greeted with calls by Israeli far-right politicians to 'wipe out, punish and destroy', it is necessary to remember that neither Palestinians nor Israelis have a monopoly over depravity, or decency.
"The Nazis brought their children to watch the 'show.' They brought their children to watch the coffins of babies they had murdered," wrote an incognito member of an Israeli WhatsApp group on Thursday. "There are no innocents in Gaza! Not even a one-day-old baby," the person concluded.
As Israelis waited miserably for the bodies of the four hostages – Shiri Bibas and her young children Kfir and Ariel, and the elderly Oded Lifschitz – it was hard to find any words. So I listened to those around me.

The ultranationalist former minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, who Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would like to bring back into his government, entreated his X followers to "remember these moments. … The joy of these animals of prey. The bloodthirstiness. The clear knowledge that these Nazis cannot be allowed to live. … Nazis don't deserve humanitarian [aid]," Ben-Gvir continued. "Not fuel. Not electricity. Not caravans. … No cease-fire, no withdrawal. Only the gates of hell!"
The previous evening, he had offered more ideas: "Destroy, topple, amputate, wipe out, crush, explode, burn, brutalize, punish, ruin, flatten. Destroy!"

Israelis who insist that all Palestinians are guilty for October 7 even have a response ready when told of Palestinians who have written private messages to Israelis condemning Hamas violence toward civilians in general and October 7 in particular. They won't write publicly, Israelis insist, because they fear what they characterize as the overriding Palestinian social norm in favor of massacres.
But on Wednesday ahead of the hostage release, my feed was full of Palestinians saying so publicly. A Palestinian writer from Israel posted: "Nothing justifies the kidnapping of babies. NOTHING!" She was reposting Ihab Hassan, a Palestinian who uses terms like "depraved" or "cowardice and vile depravity" for Hamas, "war crime" regarding the Bibas family, and states that "Hamas is a stain on our cause."

A Palestinian UN diplomat, Ambassador Majed Bamya, posted a condemnation of violence against both Israeli and Palestinian children. Aziz Abu Sarah, a longtime Palestinian friend, has made a lifetime of publicly condemning violence against civilians of all sides, calling for peace and working in partnership with Israelis. These commitments were Aziz's response to his brother's death after being beaten in Israeli prisons decades earlier.

Further, one could easily accuse all Israelis of being bloodthirsty and vengeful, given Thursday's coverage in both the right-wing and mainstream media of Hamas' sick ceremony transferring the bodies.
But Hostage Square in Tel Aviv didn't quite match that impression. Clusters of people wandered around under intermittent rain, looking mostly dazed with sadness. A cameraman fiddled with his frame, tears staining his cheeks. A group of premilitary academy students affiliated with the Reform movement sang along to a leader playing mournful songs on the guitar.

Tal Arnon, a 46-year-old language editor, was weeping softly before we spoke. She described herself as rather left-wing. Does she still feel left-wing on a day like this? "More than ever," Tal said, without hesitation. She couldn't help thinking of the "pain of the mothers in Gaza, which we don't see," and spoke of people destroyed and buried under the rubble.
She flatly rejected the notion that "they're all responsible," as many Israelis believe. And "if anything good can come out of this Shoah," she said, using the Hebrew term for the Holocaust, perhaps there will be an agreement with the Palestinians – "like after the war with Egypt."

Source : Haaretz

Continue reading @ https://archive.md/Bz7SX

[claudette]

1. Exactly

The media doesn't show the DAILY agony of Palestinian mothers who lose their children (and other family members) to the viciousness of the IDF. ALL senseless killing should end - on both sides.

[Eko]

2. Great post and thanks for sharing.

[AloeVera]

3. Beautiful post. Thank you for this.

[Beastly Boy]

4. It is not America's Left, it is Israel's Left that is at the forefront of opposing the right wing politics there.

Where is the support for Israel's Left from America's left, or anywhere, for that matter?

[Israeli]

6. Apologies for late responce

President Biden and Bernie Sanders have always supported us .
You might not be aware but Meretz is the only "" Zionist "" party that
supports a Two State Solution .

There is a branch of Peace Now in America
see : https://peacenow.org/page.php?name=mission-statement

and many others such as
https://www.progressiveisrael.org/about-us/

[Beastly Boy]

8. No apology needed. Always good to hear from you.

Biden is a mainstream Democrat, and he doesn't represent America's left. Sanders supports some of the positions of Israel's left, but is mostly silent in supporting explicitly embracing Israel's left. The number of Palestinians who do not support a two state solution is as detrimental to it as the number of Israelis, but it is, regardless of popular support, inevitable, in one form or another. It is political reality, not a sentiment.

What I was talking about was the absence of solidarity with and explicit support for Israel's left. How many left wing activists and politicians ever openly embraced a Meretz politician? How many of them expressed unwavering support for a democratic secular Israel? How many of them made an effort to appeal to undecided Israeli voters for supporting Israel's left? How many pushed back on the ridiculous accusations of Zionism and the nation of Israel being complicit in genocide, apartheid and ethnic cleansing and being a fascist state? How many pointed out that the source of this propaganda is the right wing regimes in the Arab League, Iran and as far away as Russia, in addition to the traditionally antisemitic elements in Europe? Very few and far between, drowned by the loud voices of those who at this opportunity are taking advantage to exploit the tragedy of Gaza to promote their age-old Jew hatred.

Meanwhile, the right wing religious zealots and bigots in America expend tons of resources and considerable political capital in propping up their kin in the Netanyahu's ruling coalition.

The margin of of support for the current government in Israel is razor thin. Rather than increase the odds of toppling Netanyahu's government, it seems to me that America's left is alienating enough Israelis to turn the odds in Netanyahu's favor. I see how this benefits the Islamist regimes across the Middle East who, while fighting among each other for dominance, still find Israel a useful distraction. I see how this benefits traditional antisemitic elements in Europe. But I don't see how it benefits a secular democratic Israel, or Israel's political left.

[Israeli]

13. So who are the American Left then ?

We get a lot of support from American Democrats over here .
I dont understand , really I dont .

[Beastly Boy]

15. The American Left are the left wing of the Democratic Party. As a distinct group, they are better known as "progresives"

I am limited by the DU rules in how far I can take the distinction between mainstream Democrats and Progressives. All I can say is that the Progressives themselves make a distinction between the two, routinely referring to mainstream Democrats as "establishment", among other things.

I am curious who in Israel is getting a lot of support from American Democrats vs. American Progressives, and how this support manifests itself. For instance, how do Israel's Democrats, including Meretz, or Yesh Atid benefit politically from their support?

[Israeli]

18. ok thanks

I am curious who in Israel is getting a lot of support from American Democrats vs. American Progressives, and how this support manifests itself. For instance, how do Israel's Democrats, including Meretz, or Yesh Atid benefit politically from their support?

I have no idea..... first time Ive heard there is a distinction between them .
Yesh Atid are much more the "establishment" than either Avoda or Meretz tho .

[Israeli]

16. BTW......

do you remember the last time we talked politics and you showed a preference for
Naftali Bennett ?

Everyone is sensing that elections are in the air and the politicians have started making their
moves .

Likud just attacked Bennet .

See : https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/likud-responds-to-bennett-we-have-no-idea-what-his-positions-are-on-any-issue/

Responding to Naftali Bennett’s call for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to “go home already,” a Likud spokesman accuses the former prime minister of having “deceived his voters just to form a government with Meretz and the Muslim Brotherhood.”

[Beastly Boy]

19. Sorry, I don't remember preferring Bennett

In fact, I consider Bennett fairly right wing. His only redeeming quality, as far as I am concerned, is that he is a secular pragmatist. In this respect, he wouldn't be stupid enough to think that he can control religious zealots holding his government hostage.

Any government without those extremists holding ministerial portfolios would be an improvement. At the same time, being a pragmatist, I doubt that he would think twice about forming a coalition government with Likud, Netanyahu included.

[sabbat hunter]

10. I thought that

Meretz, and Labor merged last summer to form The Democrats.

[Israeli]

11. They did

but it will only technically come into effect during the next elections

see : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretz

On 30 June 2024 the party agreed to merge with the Israeli Labor Party to form a new party, the Democrats. Under the merger agreement, there will be one Meretz representative in every four spots on the new party's electoral list as well as on the party bodies, and there will also be representation for Meretz's municipal factions.[12] The agreement was ratified at a convention of delegates from both Meretz and Labor on 12 July 2024. Under the agreement, Meretz and Labor continue as separate corporate and budgetary entities, and their factions in the Histadrut, municipal councils and other bodies outside the Knesset will not be unified at this stage but will cooperate .

[sabbat hunter]

14. IT is an absolute shame

that their share of the vote has dropped so far, that Labor barely made it in last election, and Meretz didn't make it in at all.

[Israeli]

17. Not sure next elections

Last edited Mon Mar 3, 2025, 05:52 PM - Edit history (1)

will be any different.

If Oct 7th hadn't happened I would be more confident but now ?????

Or it could be to our advantage , read this from Haaretz :

https://archive.md/Cp8Jd

[aranthus]

5. So what? Who's driving the bus?

And how will each side change that?

Of course there are people of good will on both sides. The real questions are:

Are they a majority?
What do they really want?
Do they have power to change things?

[Israeli]

7. Bibi and Trump are driving the bus

"" And how will each side change that? ""

Hopefully by elections , you had your chance

The Israeli Left havent held a majority since Rabin was murdered by those that hold
power today .

We want a Two State Solution .

"" Do they have power to change things? "

Alone we dont but together with the centralists and and the Arab partes we might .

[aranthus]

9. Who's driving the Palestinian bus?

They have agency, and you seem to be ignoring that.

[Israeli]

12. Shame there is not a Palestinian .....

on this forum to answer you aranthus.
I wish there was .
I would be the last one to ignore him/her.
I can talk Israeli politics from my perspective but I'm not going to presume to
talk their politics .