Great Military Leaders

[melonkali]

Any time, Any place --

I might start by asking about Frederick the Great -- whom I know little about but note that later military leaders frequently quoted him. What made him "great"?

If Frederick's not your interest, skip that question and talk about someone else. There are many to choose from, most of whom I know only by reputation, and I'm curious as to why they're considered "great".

[RZM]

1. Not an expert on Frederick

But he presided over Prussia's ascension to true great power status. Of course he was building on those that had come before him, notably his austere (even by Prussian standards) father, Frederick William I.

Frederick the Great's armies won a lot of battles and expanded Prussian territory. He also encouraged infrastructure improvements and incorporated some enlightenment ideas into his governing philosophy (he's often cited as one of the main 'Enlightened Despots').

Basically he was pretty successful and got a lot done. Those are the basic requirements for being called 'The Great.'

[Rittermeister]

14. His military reputation was largely earned

by repeatedly defeating larger armies by making use of mobility and aggression. He was frequently at war on two or more fronts, forcing him to defeat one army, then turn and fight another. German strategic doctrine was largely influenced by him as late as WWII - the idea of striking quickly, defeating a portion of the enemy force, and exploiting the gap to destroy the rest.

[Adsos Letter]

2. Chief Joseph, of the Nez Perce.

An eminently reasonable guy, with eminently reasonable requests of the U.S. government. He and several other bands of Nez Perce refused to move to reservations outside their traditional lands, but attempted to remain at peace with the U.S. government. When young warriors from his band killed several settlers he opted for leading his people to Canada rather than entrust them to military justice.

He didn't want war but handled it with great skill when it came, albeit with the considerable help of other Nez Perce war leaders. The Nez Perce led the army on a 1500+ mile pursuit over very rough territory through Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana, with women and children in tow, during which they fought and won several battles against technologically and numerically superior forces.

When the army finally cornered them just south of the Montana-Canada border Joseph remained with the dependents and wounded, rather than make a run for the border and the safety of Canada as other warriors did.

Although consigned to the Indian Territories for several years, he managed to convince the government to finally allow his people a reservation in the northwest.

My mom (a secondary school History teacher) told me Chief Joseph's story when I was a young kid. Then I was more impressed with the military aspect of his achievement, but I've since come to recognize the humanity he displayed in trying to lead and protect his people during a time of great pressure, from without and within his tribe, which was as often as not informed by a spirit of great inhumanity.

[DissedByBush]

3. Yi Sun-sin

We tend to be Western-minded, but to understand truly great military leaders, Korean Admiral Yi Sun-sin has no equals.

Yi Sun-sin was unfortunate to live in the time of the corrupt, incompetent Joseon dynasty in Korea, and across the waters was the well-run, newly-unified Japanese with a large, well-trained military. This infighting even resulted in him being imprisoned and tortured twice, and once busted to foot soldier, a job which was supposed to be a disgrace, but one which he did with humility.

He had the absolute love and loyalty of his soldiers and of the peasants, whom he treated well and with respect (which made them a very effective nation-wide informal spy network). But that made him dangerous in the eyes of the rulers, who feared he might lead a coup. Thus he was always short on ships, supplies and men when he wasn't in jail.

Despite all of this, Yi Sun-sin never lost a battle. In his early years he won several land battles against local marauders, but he's most famous for the naval battles against the Japanese in the Imjin war (late 1500s). The Japanese only won one battle during the war, which was commanded by the admiral who replaced him during one imprisonment. That admiral lost the entire fleet except for 13 ships and 200 sailors, which only survived because one general retreated when he saw the battle was lost.

Yi Sun-sin was reinstated, and used those 13 ships to route the Japanese fleet of 333 ships in the next battle. He didn't lose one ship, and lost only two sailors. This feat is unequalled in military history before or since.

Strategy, tactics, training, engendering absolute loyalty, technology, military intelligence, knowing his enemy, use of the land and sea to advantage, there was no aspect of battle where Yi Sun-sin was lacking. Not one tactical mistake against the Japanese can even be found in his 23 battles.

And the kicker -- he was never even formally trained to command a ship, much less a whole navy.

[ellisonz]

4. George S Patton

I think this is one of the few, if not only, recordings of Patton...

Narrated by Ronald Reagan.

George Smith Patton, Jr. (November 11, 1885 – December 21, 1945) was a United States Army officer best known for his leadership while commanding corps and armies as a general during World War II. He was also well known for his eccentricity and controversial outspokenness.

Patton was commissioned in the U.S. Army after his graduation from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in 1909. In 1916–17, he participated in the unsuccessful Pancho Villa Expedition, a U.S. operation that attempted to capture the Mexican revolutionary. In World War I, he was the first officer assigned to the new United States Tank Corps and saw action in France.[1][2] In World War II, he commanded corps and armies in North Africa, Sicily, and the European Theater of Operations. In 1944, Patton assumed command of the U.S. Third Army, which under his leadership advanced farther, captured more enemy prisoners, and liberated more territory in less time than any other army in military history.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S_Patton

"If you're a leader, you don't push wet spaghetti, you pull it. The U.S. Army still has to learn that. The British understand it. Patton understood it. I always admired Patton. Oh, sure, the stupid bastard was crazy. He was insane. He thought he was living in the Dark Ages. Soldiers were peasants to him. I didn't like that attitude, but I certainly respected his theories and the techniques he used to get his men out of their foxholes."
-Bill Mauldin in The Brass Ring (1971)

William Henry Mauldin (29 October 1921 – 22 January 2003) was a two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning editorial cartoonist from the United States, who became famous for his "Willie and Joe" cartoons during World War II. - http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bill_Mauldin

[RZM]

5. This is the first time I've ever heard him speak

I knew he had a pretty high voice, but I'd never heard it myself. Many people's impressions of Patton come from the movie. George C. Scott had quite the gravelly voice, but we can see here that the real Patton sounded nothing like that.

[Wraith20878]

7. Voice

Yea, it was interesting to hear the real man speak. I'd always imagined he sounded like Scott. Movies do that though. Apparently Abraham Lincoln also had a higher pitched voice, but most movies give him a deep voice.

[sarisataka]

9. Old blood and guts

One aspect of him I found interesting was his relationship withe the 761st Tank Battalion- a 'segregated unit'

Patton biographer Carlo D'Este explained that "on the one hand he could and did admire the toughness and courage" of some black soldiers, but his writings can also be frequently read as "disdaining them and their officers because they were not part of his social order."[citation needed] Historian Hugh Cole pointed out that Patton was also the first American military leader to integrate rifle companies "when manpower got tight."[citation needed] Retired NBA Hall-of-Famer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, author of Brothers In Arms: The Epic Story of the 761st Tank Battalion, WWII's Forgotten Heroes, agreed that although Patton was a bigot like most, the fact remains that he did lend his name to the advancement of blacks in the military at the time, unlike most other military officers (Patton did prevent a black soldier from being lynched while serving as commander of a fort in El Paso before the war.). Most of the veterans of the 761st that Abdul-Jabbar interviewed stated they were proud to have served under a general widely considered one of the most brilliant and feared Allied military leaders of World War II.[citation needed]

During the Battle of the Bulge, German soldiers who had raided American warehouses were reported to have disguised themselves as Americans guarding the checkpoints in order to ambush American soldiers. Patton solved this problem by ordering black soldiers, including the 761st, to guard the checkpoints, and gave the order to shoot any white soldiers at the checkpoints who acted suspiciously

[Wraith20878]

6. Alexander and Caesar

Don't really know much about Frederick the Great, but I can tell you about another great- Alexander. He showed great tactical brilliance leading his father's cavalry in battle at age 16, and after his father's death, led a campaign of conquest east into Persia. He routinely defeated armies that dwarfed his in size, and by age 33 he had conquered and empire from Greece to the edges of India. He wanted to go further, but his soldiers refused to follow him.

Julius Caesar in another great military leader. At the siege of Alesia his army of 50,000 had built a wall surrounding an army of 80,000 Gaul's led by Vercingetorix in the city of Alesia. Caesar planned to wait until the Gauls starved to death or surrender, but discovered that a relief force of over 200,000 Gauls was on it's way. Most generals would have withdrawn facing those kind of odds, but not Caesar. He instead constructed another wall around the city, but facing the opposite direction. He was able to prevent the relief army from breaking in, and Vercingetorix's army from breaking out. The relief force eventually retreated after suffering several defeats, and Vercingetorix later surrendered.

Spartacus: Managed to lead a force of thousands of escaped slaves from several different countries and who spoke different languages. He kept this force intact and forged them into an army, melting down their chains of slavery and reforging them into swords and spears. He ran rampant around Italy for three years and made Rome tremble before he was finally defeated.

[bemildred]

8. Subutai & Belisarius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subutai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius

Mainly for the ability to do much with little.

[sarisataka]

10. Erwin Rommel- the Desert Fox

Last edited Sun Apr 15, 2012, 02:32 AM - Edit history (1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel

Some highlights of his career:

-WW 1 awarded Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class plus Pour le Merite, Prussia's highest award
-commanded 7th Panzer in France 1940, known as 'Ghost Division' for their rapid advances
-commanded Afrika Korps resulting in a pitched campaign over three years with limited forces and supplies
-commanded German forces at Normandy. His prediction that the allies would invade there resulted in many fortifications that seriously delayed the break out. Although by the time of the invasion, he believed Pas-de-Calais would be the landing site so forces were not fully deployed to defend the Normandy beaches

Throughout the war he fought honorably, earning the respect of the allies. Although he commanded Hitler's escort force during the Poland campaign, he refused to follow Nazi orders to deport Jews, or execute commandos and civilians for the duration of the war. By the end of the war he supported overthrowing Hitler but wanted him arrested rather than assassinated to prevent Hitler from becoming a martyr.

[hack89]

11. Chester Nimitz

orchestrated a brilliant campaign in the Pacific.

[damyank913]

12. Totally agree...

...I think Macarthur was over rated. Good administrator but over rated as a military tactician.

[damyank913]

13. How about Ulysses Grant and William Tecumseh Sherman...

...a formidable team.