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Jilly_in_VA

(10,875 posts)
Sun Apr 23, 2023, 12:30 PM Apr 2023

When Cleopatra was alive, she wasn't categorised by the colour of her skin

In 1751, the great American polymath Benjamin Franklin worried about the small number of “purely white People in the World”. “All Africa,” he wrote, “is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny... And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also.” Only “the Saxons… [and] the English make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.”

The question of “who is white?” might seem to us today as self-evident. Yet it has over the past three centuries been fiercely contested. Many groups we now think of as white were certainly not seen as such for much of that period, from the Irish to the Slavs, from Italians to Jews. It took a long process of social negotiation and conflict before they were admitted into the club of whiteness.

Today, too, racial boundaries remain in dispute. The latest “who is white?” controversy has emerged from the decision by Netflix to cast a black actor, Adele James, as Cleopatra in its new drama series, Queen Cleopatra.

As with many such debates, the issues are shrouded in layers of myth and ideology. Much of the controversy arises from the desire to impose contemporary notions of race and identity, of whiteness and blackness, on an ancient world that thought very differently about such issues. Even identities such as “Egyptian”, “Greek”, “Macedonian” and “African” have significantly different connotations today than they did two millennia ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/23/when-cleopatra-was-alive-she-wasnt-categorised-by-colour-of-her-skin

Fascinating article. I believe in one race only....HUMAN.

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When Cleopatra was alive, she wasn't categorised by the colour of her skin (Original Post) Jilly_in_VA Apr 2023 OP
"I believe in one race only....HUMAN." It's my goal, but it takes a constant monitoring of myself. marble falls Apr 2023 #1
Yep, and I identify as multigraincracker Apr 2023 #8
I am a "fat old longhaired guy." marble falls Apr 2023 #9
I'm surprised Franklin called Swedes swarthy; I've Croney Apr 2023 #2
Really. A "swarthy" Nordic country? rsdsharp Apr 2023 #3
He probably Jilly_in_VA Apr 2023 #5
Nope. rsdsharp Apr 2023 #6
Well said. WalkerinSC Apr 2023 #4
The Ptolemies saw themselves as the heirs of Alexander eallen Apr 2023 #7
I find it interesting that the Guardian uses the word "black", uncapitalized BWdem4life Apr 2023 #10
I think Jilly_in_VA Apr 2023 #11
I can't believe this is even an issue... Mark.b2 Apr 2023 #12
Racists always care Jilly_in_VA Apr 2023 #13

Croney

(4,919 posts)
2. I'm surprised Franklin called Swedes swarthy; I've
Sun Apr 23, 2023, 12:42 PM
Apr 2023

usually seen them stereotyped as blonde white people. My opinion is that most people in the world are a mix of many races. I see no value in thinking otherwise.

WalkerinSC

(248 posts)
4. Well said.
Sun Apr 23, 2023, 12:51 PM
Apr 2023

Hard to believe we still judge people entirely on nothing more than outer appearance. We don't even treat car purchases that way ...usually (by Gawd this car is a complete piece of garbage from an engineering standpoint but I am going spend $50,000 on it because it's the right color versus that other car)

eallen

(2,972 posts)
7. The Ptolemies saw themselves as the heirs of Alexander
Sun Apr 23, 2023, 01:39 PM
Apr 2023

They lived in their own city. They married among the other Greek-speaking elite. And intermarried. Sometimes closely, hence Ptolemy Philadelphus. We know their family tree, because that also was important to them.

What goes wrong with most portrayals of Cleopatra isn't how she looked, but who the Ptolemies were. They were foreigners who ruled Egypt by right of conquest, quite conscious of their own separate origin and language and heritage. Identifying Cleopatra with the people she ruled would be like identifying Robert Bulwer-Lytton as Keralan, because he was made Viceroy of India. The late 19th c. rulers of India weren't from India. The Ptolemies weren't from Egypt.


BWdem4life

(2,462 posts)
10. I find it interesting that the Guardian uses the word "black", uncapitalized
Sun Apr 23, 2023, 03:47 PM
Apr 2023

is "Black" capitalized only in the U.S. now? Is britain behind the times? What gives?

Jilly_in_VA

(10,875 posts)
11. I think
Sun Apr 23, 2023, 04:18 PM
Apr 2023

some Brits only just got past saying "coloured". /s (Which was in use here when I was young.)

And speaking of which, there was a guy whom some of us old folk may remember called Harry Golden, who back in the 1950s and early 1960s was the editor of something called The Carolina Israelite, and also wrote some books that were memoirs of his youth growing up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, as well as humorous observations on the world. One comment of his that I particularly remember concerned the labeling of accommodations of water fountains and such as "Colored". He queried, "Shouldn't ours say 'Colorless'?"

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