If God is cruel than a universe without God

[standingtall]

is even crueler. With hurricanes,mass shootings and ignorant statements from right wingers. There seems to be a lot of the if God allows or causes these horrible things to happen he is cruel. Let's for the sake of argument pretend God doesn't exist. What exactly is solved? People would still be getting raped,enslaved,murdered killed in natural disasters dying from drug overdoses and getting cancer etc. There is no hope of restoration in a world without God. The families of murder victims would have no hope of ever seeing those they lost again. Same goes for anyone lost due to illness.

And for Christians who object to God allowing or causes these things. If we are going to be consistent with an all power all knowing creator than he is the first and ultimate cause of everything. He created the earth with a capacity for hurricanes with the knowledge that hurricanes would destroy stuff and harm life forms. He created man with the capacity to kill knowing he would kill. Yes Satan also causes man to kill,but God created Satan with the knowledge one day Satan would cause man to sin. The phrase God is not the author of sin is not really in the bible. So I guess it depends on what you mean by is God the author of sin? If by author of sin you mean he morally approves of it. Then no God is not the author of sin. However if by author of sin you mean he is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin in this world. Then yes he is. To be clear God is not a sinner though and man is still responsible for the sins he commits even if God is causing all things behind the scenes.

[vlyons]

1. Are you trying to apply logic to the question "Does God exist?"

It so, belief in a god is better based on blind faith, because the existence of god is pretty illogical. For starters, what created god, and what created the god that created god, etc ad infinitum? Then there's the bit about a god not being at the effect of the laws of the universe, such as gravity, thermodynamics etc. And of course where on google maps does god live? It's just much better to say, "I have faith in the existence of god."

As a Buddhist, I like to turn the whole question on its head. Buddhism is a non-theistic practice. We don't believe in a creator God. We don't even believe in the existence of an ego. We postulate egolessness. Ego is a fictional concept that we create in our mind. So if there is no ego that can be found, weighed, and measured, then who/what is it that believes in a god?

There is no god that uses hurricanes and tornados to punish sinners. We don't know the origen of the creation of this universe, or even if its the only universe. We simply don't know.

[standingtall]

3. The existence of God is just as logical

as a universe without God. God was not created God simply always existed. If there is no God what created the universe? If the big bang theory is true and the universe was created by a single atom exploding what created that single atom? If the universe always existed like some believe how is that anymore logical than the existence of God? God does not use hurricanes to punish people,but in his providence he does cause hurricanes.

[vlyons]

5. As I stated above

we don't know how this universe started, only that it did and about when. God does not cause hurricanes. The spin of the earth on its axis, the vagaries of weather, the evaporation of ocean water, and the expansion and shrinking of gases in the atmosphere cause hurricanes. This universe did not start with a single atom. It started by what is called a "singularity," which is thought to be an infinitely dense amount of gravity. Basically "singularity" is the name used for "we don't know." We don't know what a singularity is, because we have never been able to observe one. We can only speculate that it has the property of infinite gravity, and that inside it, space-time ceases to exist, or at least exists in some way that we don't understand.

You lack the scientific knowledge to discuss cosmology. Perhaps you should just stick with belief in God based on faith. But if you postulate God based on logic, well frankly your so-called logic is deeply flawed. There are just some questions for which we have no answers.

[standingtall]

7. Whatever a singularity is it would still be something that existed without being created

So if it's logical to believe something can exist without being created. What makes the believe the universe was created by a singularity anymore logical than the believe that God who exist without being created created the universe himself? Whatever the scientific explanation is for how hurricanes happen God causes all of those things too and therefore God causes hurricanes.

[vlyons]

9. What evidence do you have that a singularity was never created,

or arise from some pre-existing causes and conditions? You have no such evidence, and neither does anyone else. There is no evidence for creator God that exists outside of space time and the laws of the universe. So just stop already with your bogus so-called logic. You are free to believe in God, or not.

Personally I'm rather fond of the Hindi version of how the world came to be. That is rests on the back of a big turtle. And when asked, "What does the turtle stand on?" The answer is, "It's turtles all the way down."

[standingtall]

12. The circle has to stop somewhere

Nothing+Nothing=nothing therefore something somewhere along the way had to exist without being created for anything to exist at all. Stop with your total disrespect of Christian believes on a Christian forum. Your logic isn't anymore superior than ours.

[raging moderate]

18. Ancient Vikings also believed the Earth rested on a turtle's back.

It was said that they had noticed the slight wobble in the Earth's motion.

[safeinOhio]

2. If you are trying to understand bad vs good, think about this.

This is more of a Taoist thought. The mutual interdependence of polar opposites. There would be no word for good without a word for bad. Just as a coin has two sides, we wouldn't need a heads sides without a tales side. If you love or hate, it is only possible to name that feeling without it's opposite. There would be no word for hot without cold, it would not even be thought of. Early Christians, the Gnostics knew this.

[standingtall]

4. The laws of opposites have been understood by Christians and Jews alike

for a long time not just Gnostics. God created the laws of opposites to begin with. Isaiah 45 verse 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Deuteronomy 30 verse 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good,and death and evil;


Pre-Christianity there was an early form of Gnosticism. Which taught dualism that there was a God that caused all the good and another God that caused all the evil. Which is why God affirmed he alone does it all in the book of Isaiah.

[vlyons]

6. There are a few of us around here

that don't take the Bible as the literal truth. Rather, we understand it as a human expression and morality tales, relative to its time and place. So quoting Bible passages to me in place of real scientific fact is a pointless exercise. You won't swing me to your point of view that way.

Buddhism sees "good" vs "bad," "light" versus "dark," etc as dualistic thinking. They are just concepts.

[standingtall]

8. You do understand that this is the Chistian forum?

Not the main forum or the forum for Buddism? So of course the bible is going to be quoted here.

[vlyons]

11. I'm very well read in the Bible

and quote it frequently. But I don't take it literally.

[guillaumeb]

10. If one accepts the concept of free will,

one must also accept that the Creator does not intervene and guide creation. If a person kills another, the blame for that killing is one the person doing the killing.

If sentient beings are to be truly sentient they must be free to act freely, and in the action, they accept responsibility both for their actions and for the consequences of those actions.

[standingtall]

13. Not all Christian accept the concept of free will

I am one of those Christian that believes in an deterministic theology. I don't believe that any man's will is free of the sovereignty of God.

[guillaumeb]

14. I understand, thus the beginning word "if".

But if sentient beings were created in the image and likeness of the Creator, does that not imply sentience and free will?

[standingtall]

15. I don't believe that means God surrendered his

sovereignty. There are things we are told in scripture God can do that we cannot and even God himself doesn't have total free will. He is bound by his own nature. For instance the bible tells us God cannot lie. Therefore God is not free to lie. Scripture teaches God has perfect knowledge of all things. Therefore man could not act outside of God's perfect knowledge,because if he could God wouldn't have perfect knowledge of all things.

[guillaumeb]

16. The Creator created existence. So we believe.

The Creator is not bound by our limitations. We believe that also. So there is no equivalence except that we are both sentient.

[guillaumeb]

17. Free will is the answer.

The Creator created sentient life and that life has free will. Absent free will, the will to act freely, humans would be merely puppets acting a script.

My view.