Words to ponder

[GliderGuider]

[div class="excerpt" style="border:solid 1px #000000"]‎It never was and never will be, because it is now - all together, one, holding to itself. What possible birth of it will you look for? In what way could it have grown? From what? To say or think, "from what is not" is not possible, because there is no saying or thinking that is not. And besides, if it started out from nothing, what could have made it come into being later rather than sooner? So it must either be, completely, or not be."by Parmenides (5th century BCE)
translated by Peter Kingsley

I wonder how far East some of those ancient Greeks went? Or if Venus visited their morning sky as well, as they incubated under a tree.

[ellisonz]

1. A-not-A question - it's helpful to think about it as A (Not A).

In linguistics, an A-not-A question is a polar question that offers two opposite possibilities for the answer. Examples in English are "Are you happy or sad?" and "Are you happy or not?". The answer to the former must be an echo answer, stating the correct alternative ("I am sad&quot ; however, the answer to the latter can be yes or no in response to the first and more explicitly stated alternative.

Mandarin Chinese frequently uses A-not-A questions and answers them with echo answers, as in these examples:[1]:pp.558-563
Nǐ yào bu yào chī júzi? ("You want not want eat orange?&quot
Yào. ("Want.&quot
Bu yào. ("Not want.&quot

Tā màn-màn-de pǎo háishi bu màn-màn-de pǎo? (&quot S)he slowly run or not slowly run?&quot
Màn-màn-de pǎo. ("Slowly run.&quot
Bu màn-màn-de pǎo ("Not slowly run.&quot

^ Li, Charles N., and Thompson, Sandra A., Mandarin Chinese: A Functional Reference Grammar, Univ. of California Press, 1981.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-not-A_question

Thus to simplify Parmenides - Is it that I exist? (Is it not that I exist?) - two questions that cannot be answered in the negation without affirmation = I do not exist (I do not not-exist.)

Here's a link to some really academic papers on how this works in Mandarin: http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347q3263r4g7646/

It's a useful way to think about nothingness without concluding that there can only be not-nothingness. Trust me, it's not a trick.

(I actually learned this is a course on "Idea Systems of Chinese Religions" and not in a linguistics class.)

[GliderGuider]

4. I spent many decades wandering through a logical universe

But I recently found out that just sitting with paradox and not-knowing suits me better. Kingsley maintains that's the way to approach Parmenides as well - as a koan - but his seems to be a minority opinion among modern philosophers.

[marasinghe]

2. quote from Heraclitus

'.... No man steps in the same river twice. It is never the same river and never the same man ....'
(paraphrased)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus

[GliderGuider]

3. I always wondered where that quote came from. Thanks!

[GliderGuider]

7. The Heraclitus article led me to another Wiki article on "Dialectical monism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_monism

Despite the clumsy name, I immediately recognized a big chunk of my personal cosmology in it. Thanks even more!

[marasinghe]

9. a real pleasure, GG.

there's been speculation among Asian scholars (and possibly others), on whether -- either Heraclitus, or The Buddha on his pre-enlightenment peregrinations, were exposed to each other, or, each others' theories; since they were, more or less, contemporaries. But no one's come up with any data on a connection.

My own guess would be on: each arriving at the same point, independently. As you probably know, Buddhist teachings emphasize that truth is independent of its discoverers; & beings who have similar abilities can achieve similar results.

This is the basis for Theravada Buddhist doctrine regarding Pacceka (silent) Buddhas -- those who discover enlightenment by their own efforts, without the assistance of any external teaching; and could be found in different times & places; perhaps even here & now. According to the writings, the difference between these Silent Buddhas & the Teaching Buddhas -- is that Silent Buddhas lack the ability to explain the Way to others.

Cheers

[GliderGuider]

10. Mongolian shamanism may have touched ancient Greece

Philologist Peter Kingley has a theory (and some supporting evidence) that a Mongolian shaman known as "Abaris Skywalker" might have helped fertilize pre-Socratic philosophy with Eastern non-dualism through contacts with Pythagoras in Greece. He lays it out in his latest book A Story Waiting to Pierce You - which is a remarkable little read from both the historical and mystical perspectives.

I have the feeling that the world is filling up with Silent Buddhas these days, but that might just be my projection...

[ZombieHorde]

5. What do you think the "it" is referring to in the quote? nt

[GliderGuider]

6. I think "it" could be either the reality we experience or the quality of existence itself.

Last edited Thu Feb 9, 2012, 09:16 AM - Edit history (1)

On edit: Kingsley feels it's "the reality we experience". He says this in his interpretation of the poem in his book "Reality" (perhaps the title is a clue?) Since that's the simplest interpretation, I'm inclined to agree.

[ZombieHorde]

8. I would have guessed "the present."

Though I guess there is some crossover between the present and reality.

To quote a fool: "Now is the only thing that's real."