Tens of thousands of guns go missing from dealer inventories each year

[Robb]

The problem of guns disappearing from gun stores is a substantial one. Between 2004 and 2011 ATF discovered nearly 175,000 firearms missing from dealer inventories during compliance inspections. In 2011 alone ATF discovered that 18,429 guns were unaccounted for during the course of 10,416 firearms-compliance inspections. Additionally, about 50 percent of gun dealers were found to be in violation of at least some federal regulations in 2012.

And these numbers likely account for only a small portion of the guns that are lost or stolen from dealers each year. As explained in more detail below, ATF is only able to inspect a fraction of the nation’s gun dealers each year. In 2012, for example, ATF inspected only 19 percent of gun dealers. There are likely tens of thousands of additional firearms missing from the inventories of dealers who have not recently received an ATF inspection.

(snip)

High-profile examples of when guns go missing from gun dealers

In addition to these aggregate numbers, there are many noteworthy examples of gun dealers failing to maintain control of their dangerous inventory.

Bull’s Eye Shooter Supply, Tacoma, Washington

In 2002 John Allen Muhammad, the “Beltway sniper,” terrorized the Washington, D.C., metro area when he and his teenage accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo, gunned down 10 people over the course of several weeks. The Bushmaster XM-15 assault rifle used in the attacks was one of 238 guns that disappeared from the inventory of Bull’s Eye Shooter Supply over a three-year period....

Read More: "Lost and Stolen Guns from Gun Dealers," http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/civil-liberties/report/2013/06/18/66693/lost-and-stolen-guns-from-gun-dealers/

[Turbineguy]

1. No problem

the NRA will protect us.

[ceonupe]

2. This is not surprising

One of the last places to modernize inventory control and technology was/is gun stores. Because of the general distrust over digital records (big brother fear to the extreme in some cases) many stores operated on paper only even if the other half of the pawns shop or jewelry store was computerized.

I recently put in a Wireless RFID tag system and wireless network in a large locally owned gun store in town. THis store had made the news quite a bit over the last 10 years or so due to break ins caused by a bad safety ordinance that required all business to have no key exit access from the building (no double sided keyed deadbolts) the robbers broke the window beside the door and let themselves in and stole a few shotguns and cheap jewelry. City changed ordinance to allow certain business like gun stores. A few years later paperwork resulted in them being unable to account for quite a few guns. After an outside company came in and audited they were able to locate records for almost every gun. The shop paid over 20k to that 3rd party company and it took a long time mainly because there were no computerized records. but let me get back to my point.

I work in healthcare IT but I am and avid shooter (plinking, competition (IDPA), 3 gun and buy lots of stuff from this store. The owner and manager and approached me to inquire if i could assist them in modernizing the store computer systems esp. inventory system. I suggested a tagging system that used RFID tags attached to each gun on receipt and is deactivated at time of sale. the system allows them not only to see whats on the floor but whats in stock as well. Also if a tag has not been located in a determined set of time the system alerts. They now have realtime inventory and asset tracking. the cost for the system was kind of high just because of the volume of weapons this store has and the need to have quite a few sensors to do in store location tracking. (how much on the floor how many in main display cabinet how many in processing how many in warehouse/stockroom.

My point to all of this was to say I believe with modernization of inventory control systems at the local store level we can help prevent "missing guns".

[billh58]

3. Yet another

reincarnated Gungeoneer attempting to sound "reasonable." As you've been told before, you are posting in the wrong Group and your NRA garbage is not welcome here. Go back to the Gungeon where your NRA buddies will be impressed with your gun prowess and know how.

Less guns = less gun violence, injuries and deaths. Universal gun registration = more accountability and responsibility. Change IS coming, and the American people are waking up to just how much irresponsibility and grief the NRA has purchased from our politicians on behalf of its arms dealer benefactors.

[ceonupe]

4. First my post was directly about the OP

the OP that was posted.

My points were lack of modernization in paperwork leads to lots of lost missing and unreported stolen firearms.

I tried to explain that in practice many gun sellers are technology adverse. but its not consistent because you can go to the other half of the pawn shop and they will have computers running inventory of pawns, and other merchandise. This is an area that needs attention.

Many say that they lack of good record keeping (this is 2013 local records should be modernized if even for the business analytical value) but many gun store owners are old school anti technology.

Nothing in my post was against your SOP. THe fact that i own and shoot does not make me not want safe streets, reduction in gun violence reduction in lost/stolen firearms, better locking devices for firearms (safes should be required but cabel gun locks should be atleast mandated) and many other common interests. i also support modifying BATF polices and law to allow more focus to be placed on problem dealers (multiple thefts, straw purchases etc with an emphasis on finding out if there is criminal intent and prosecuting or if it is policy failure consent decree them in to substantive changes or take their FFL (gun dealer Lic). Every gun owner I know would support that. The gun a gun owner may face in a violent attack most likely was not acquired legally so they want tough restrictions of prohibited persons. It just makes sense.


And yes the gun stores can and should do more to secure their product. and keep better account of it. I know other types of business with potentially dangerous items usually have more aggressive oversight. For example Pharmacies or industrial chemical wholesalers. there is a long way from where FFLs are now to most other business that deal with dangerous products and i support bridging that gap.

But until the SOP is this forum is for the repeal of the 2nd amendment and the criminalization of civilian gun ownership how is my post wrong. Just because we font agree on the same methods does not mean we dont agree on the overall goal assuming that goal is less gun violence while protecting the RKBA. However if the goal of you/this group is the overturing of the 2nd or civilian disarmorment then why is that not stated?

[Kingofalldems]

5. I love that story.

[Hoyt]

6. Many gun store operators are tbaggers. That explains a lot of things.

[billh58]

10. No, you and others

who come over from the Gungeon are very careful to not violate this Group's SOP but still manage to get your gun nut NRA points across, and your framing of "overturning the 2nd Amendment" is a classic NRA talking point.

Nice try Bubba, but no cigar, and your reference to the "overall goal" is pure Gungeon right-wing speak for "more guns for more people." If it talks like, walks like, and quacks like -- well, you get the picture don't you Ducky...

[Marengo]

7. Who is Ceonupe a reincarnation of?

Just curious as to what indicators suggest this. Syntax?

[rdharma]

8. "Who is Ceonupe a reincarnation of?"

Who cares? But easy to recognize!

[billh58]

11. You should know the

answer since it comes from your swamp Bubba.

[ileus]

16. I wish our hospital would consider RFID for our equipment...

It would make life so much easier come PM time.

[ceonupe]

18. there is grant money out there if you are a community owned hospital

Last edited Thu Jun 20, 2013, 07:30 AM - Edit history (1)

they is grant money out there if you are a community owned hospital even if you aren't the price is not high at all. Most labor and delivery and nurseries have these systems with anti tamper auto alarm bracelets/anklets. but the price has come down so low over the past 2-3 years its do able for most any size business if the prioritize it. ( i know its crazy but u can thank walmart for requiring it at the pallet level and now one many products at the product level, that caused the cost to come down dramatically as more and more vendors and suppliers adopted the systems)

most of the medical stuff uses the same sensors and tags only difference is the software driving the systems. (and the medical upcharge lol)

But good luck. Many pharmacies have adopted this as well. We do work with pharmacies and they are pushing this way as well.

[rdharma]

9. Tiahrt Amendments

•The Tiahrt Amendments also block ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct inventory checks to detect loss and theft, which law enforcement says is a dangerous back channel source for criminals who are in the market for illegal guns.

Remember the DC Sniper and his AR-15? ....

"In 2002, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 11 people in the Washington, DC area with a sniper rifle that had gone missing from Bull’s Eye Shooter Supply in Tacoma, WA. That gun was one of many -- the store was later determined to have lost track of 238 guns over a three-year period. It was only after the horrifying shooting spree was over that the dealer’s license was revoked in 2003."

[ceonupe]

12. rdharma you made my point thank you.

You combine your post with the sheer number of FFLs storefront and small time home based with the lack of standardization of practices safe guards and an active governmental role in helping educating and enforcing good practices you get lots of stolen/missing/unreported/undocumented ghost guns.

A good way for the government to help is thru encouraging best practices. Its a shame to be honest how slack some sellers are ill be honest. By that i mean they do the background checks on guns sold but because of poor inventory controls and a total lack of adopting an advancements in retail from the past 20 years its surprising there aren't more "lost/stolen" guns from dealers not reported.

The ability to backwards look at gun crime data to discover place of purchase and lets say top 5% of sellers of guns used in crimes regionally get extra scrutiny. Sort of like how medicaid targets potential provider fraud. Investigate if not hing is wrong with process or illegal increase police presence around this shop and run education campaign on straw purchasing and go after the straw buyers. If shop is doing illegal stuff shut it down if shop is not doing illegal stuff but not following best practices then force them to correct practices or shut them down.

This thread points out a glaring problem in the FFL system and i am sure the legit FFLs would like the rift raff removed from the system. nothing worse than being a legit businessman and watching the cheat down the street break all the rules and almost push you out of business.

I can see a need to ensure the ATF does not become overly burdensome but there should not also be an arbitrary hard limit if evidence of abuse is found.

[rdharma]

13. No, I didn't!

I was pointing out how the NRA sponsored "Tiahrt Amendments" allows lax record keeping and inventory controls.

Now WHY would the NRA push for rules like that?

I'd recommend you do some research into the Tiahrt Amendments and see why the NRA pushed them so hard.

"In 2002, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 11 people in the Washington, DC area with a sniper rifle that had gone missing from Bull’s Eye Shooter Supply in Tacoma, WA. That gun was one of many -- the store was later determined to have lost track of 238 guns over a three-year period. It was only after the horrifying shooting spree was over that the dealer’s license was revoked in 2003."

The loss of the 238 guns from Bull's Eye Shooter Supply would NEVER have been discovered without the capture of the murder weapon and it being traced back to them. And that's a bit late (after the fact)....... don't ya' think?

[ceonupe]

14. that was my point on this issue exactly

that was my point on this issue exactly

the Tiahrt Amendments specifically limited the number of inventories and severely restricted the ability of the ATF to preform audits. (NOT A GOOD THING)

If there was concern over punitive audits than i'm sure a less draconian way to limit abuse could have been found than a blanket limit on number of audits. some of the amendments i personally agree with but this is one i definitely don't. coming from someone who has spent lots of time in gun stores as a customer and no after doing a job in one specifically about inventory control I believe better standards are needed.

In pharmacies there are very tight controls. Heck even the local/state liquor board can visit a club/bar/liquor store more than once to audit if evidence shows a problem/violation may be occurring.

you here gun stores complaining that they have to shut down completely for multiday audits by the atf but the truth is they don't have to shutdown. just keep records of sales made during inventory and adjust accordingly. The reason many have to shutdown during the audit is their crazy inefficient paper system of record keeping.

[rdharma]

15. Are you going to be contacting the NRA and telling them to stop support.........

..... of the Tiahrt Amendments? As an NRA member, I'm sure they'll listen to you!

[ceonupe]

17. funny yeah i actually have sent many of my ideas in but...

I am/was (may chose not to renew) a NRA member since 2004. it was a voluntary join. and yes one of the main reasons for me deciding not to remain a member at this time is the horrible PR decisions and crazy wayne. add in the fact the magizens and comentary around election time becomes almost all political. Heck they sent me a NOBAMA supper sticker pack im like ok no thanks.

funny yeah i actually have sent many of my ideas in but the auto response was kind of stale and did not address a single point.
so i guess they autofilter emails from members and send you thanks for the support fluff auto responses. Im sure if a non member sent the same email they would get a different kind of auto response (more anti gun control) or no response at all.

specifically i wrote about education programs to FFLs about ways to modernize inventory. About a way to support backgropund checks while preventing a possible backdoor registry. about bad polices that let problem dealers stay in business to long that hurt the whole shooting sports community.

Not sure if NRA is ready to listen. I like the new young spokes people they have on youtube and nranews they are 1000% better than crazy wayne but im afraid the angry old resistant to change white man angle still works for them. But i know at my range its getting a lot younger more professional and more diverse in women and people of color. Then NRA will lose these people and myself if they dont change. sometimes its like two organizations one during election season and then the normal "gun community focused org" during "down time". Because we are now in the era of the nonstop campaign its getting more than a bit tacky and tasteless.

I hope someone from the NRA sees this send crazy wayne to pasture. Collins Idehen Jr ("Colion Noir&quot makes a far better case for many of the pro RKBA side without being an ass or being so far out of touch its laughable. but i don't think the NRA will change not for a while or until an alternative group gains significant ground. I joined quite of the few more moderate groups specifically to help them shift the nra on some of the more crazy positions. locally i would say 45% of the range voted obama (though only about 15% would prob admit it at the range lol) but my informal polling of shooting friends and people at the range show greater than 60% support Universall BC and prob 80% support some type of enhancement. Almost 100% wish there was a way for non dealers to run background check and transfer weapon without having to go thru dealer. (THIS IS VERY POPULAR WITH GUN OWNERS THIS SHOULD BE A NO BRAINER) find away to open the BC system to private sales.

[billh58]

19. The "new" NRA Gungeoneers like this one

are attempting to baffle us with bullshit, but it's so transparent that it is actually funny.

[rdharma]

20. Give him an "E" for effort!