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AloeVera

(4,560 posts)
51. Don't be too sure of that!
Sun May 17, 2026, 04:38 PM
May 17

We are more similar than you think. Including Briggs-Myers (though I don't recall my type exactly, but it sounds about right) and the suspected autism thing. Throw in some ADHD diagnosed and I'm all over the place with inattention combined with hyper-focus and special interests. And of course a pre-occupation and passion for fairness and justice. ESPECIALLY the defense of underdogs, minorities, victims of all sorts and the persecuted and endangered. Seems like a commonality.

We both come at this from the same place, a good place - a concern and care of the less powerful and the victimized. We diverge in our assessment of who those are, in this case.

My assessment is based on where the facts and "logic" have led me. That process was long and painful. Complicated by the fact that I grew up in a historically anti-semitic country and my last name is Jewish. So I am not a stranger to anti-semitism on a personal level, though I was not fully aware of the extent of my Jewishness (though not matrilineal) as it seems it was kept from me until not long ago. Or perhaps it was due to lack of interest on my part, being a humanist eschewing all forms of tribalism, nationalism and religion.

Then of course, in Canada, I was exposed to the same PR and mythology about Israel as everyone in the West.

But then, applying logic, I started seeing inconsistencies and fallacies in those arguments and myths. Once my eyes were opened, a long process in my youth and early middle age, I could not unsee what I had seen or concluded. Then, similarly to autists or people with that bend towards fairness and justice, I was passionate and relentless, and no one could convince me otherwise. Sort of like you, on the opposite side.

You may think me presumptuous, but I see the error in your "logic". It starts with the equating of Israel with Jewry and vica versa. Therefore you see criticism as anti-semitic or at least somehow dangerous to Jews. But Israel is a nation-state, not the Jewish faith, culture or ethnicity. It does not represent Jews worldwide or should be equated with all Jewry. It is in the interests of people like Netanyahu to claim otherwise in order to ensure people of good will towards Jews are reluctant to criticize Israel and that they defend its actions with all their might, all facts and evidence to the contrary.

We saw that play out for two years. I saw no hateful comments about Jews but I did see a lot of demonization of Muslims as well as defense and rationalization of even the most hateful and inhumane actions of Israel. Trust me when I say it was agonizing and demoralizing to read and exhausting and personally costly to fight against.

What I see still is the repetition of the same talking points that enabled many to close their eyes to an unfolding genocide.

Israel will not be wiped off the map as long as the American Empire exists and that includes not just the U.S.. I am not convinced they would be even then, even if such an unlikely scenario occurred. That view assumes all Muslims are vengeful and genocidal like the state of Israel, so far not born out by history or facts.

Jews are not being genocided, but Muslims are. And Muslims have ALWAYS been the underdogs in a world ruled by white Christians, but that fact doesn't penetrate Western ears attuned to hear "Muslims are bad". To claim that they are not in danger of genocide, when it is actually happening.... attests to the strength and power of Israel's PR and sway in Western discourse as well as to anti-Muslim propaganda.

Of course there is also the fact that it is not Muslims per se that Israel is genociding. It is Israel's neighbours and/or owners of the lands Israel covets. So to me, the argument that Muslims are not underdogs because of the size of their population is a deflection and a distraction from the real issue - which Israel does not want you to see. It is also dangerous and divisive, if you think about it.

Thank you for explaining your views and where you come from. It was a good post for that reason and this exchange is probably the most honest and respectful one we've had. I am glad for that.

Recommendations

5 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Lucky enough to meet a couple of multigraincracker May 17 #1
Ditto malaise May 17 #2
The propaganda portrays Israel is "the good guys" and Muslims as "the bad guys" Orrex May 17 #3
Yes Israel has controlled the narrative here and elsewhere for a long time FakeNoose May 17 #8
Do you know any Jewish people? yardwork May 17 #11
Yes we have many Jewish groups in Pittsburgh and I have several friends and neighbors of the Jewish faith FakeNoose May 17 #36
So you are accusing your Jewish friends and neighbors of the following? yardwork May 17 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author Biophilic May 17 #47
Where are you seeing that? yardwork May 17 #9
Just out of curiosity... Orrex May 17 #21
Good question. I rarely use the AI results, but here goes... yardwork May 17 #23
We need to be careful not to conflate Jews as a people with the state of Israel Orrex May 17 #29
I was responding to your post above. yardwork May 17 #31
Ah yes--you did respond. My bad. Orrex May 17 #35
You have not. yardwork May 17 #37
I'm sorry that you don't care to engage with the subject seriously Orrex May 17 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author jfz9580m May 18 #61
Oh staaahp, you relentless flirt! Orrex May 18 #64
This message was self-deleted by its author jfz9580m May 18 #65
I admire the courage of your convictions, willing to stand by your totally level-headed statements Orrex May 18 #67
This message was self-deleted by its author jfz9580m May 18 #68
Thank you and an excellent response. Biophilic May 17 #39
This message was self-deleted by its author jfz9580m May 18 #60
And a lovely good morning to you as well? Orrex May 18 #63
This message was self-deleted by its author jfz9580m May 18 #66
Muslims: Bad press since The Crusades no_hypocrisy May 17 #4
Well, those and that little "conversion by the sword" thing. ColoringFool May 17 #5
What gets overlooked Old Crank May 17 #6
The Christian Crusaders butchered both Jews and Muslims. yardwork May 17 #12
And a lot of other Christians Old Crank May 17 #58
Not to mention a lot of women, pagans, so-called witches. yardwork May 18 #62
THIS!!!!!!! eom BlueMTexpat May 17 #13
"Conversion by the sword" is a misconception/trope used against Muslims since the Middle Ages. AloeVera May 17 #16
Islamic people developed most of what we think of as modern advances. yardwork May 17 #22
I believe there is still a tremendous amount of guilt about what happened in WWII. Biophilic May 17 #7
it didnt start w ww2. mopinko May 17 #19
What didn't start with WWII? Biophilic May 17 #24
attacks on jews. mopinko May 17 #28
It's interesting, isn't it. yardwork May 17 #32
yup. mopinko May 17 #33
Oh, good grief, no. Like a couple of millennium. Biophilic May 17 #49
it mystifies me, too. mopinko May 17 #52
All I can do is agree with you. It's honestly a mystery. And Christianity never looks good. Biophilic May 17 #53
Most of what you've written here is inaccurate. yardwork May 17 #25
As I stated in my post these are the myths I grew up with. Myths! Not truths. Biophilic May 17 #43
So you don't agree with what you wrote above? yardwork May 17 #45
Many decades of conditioning, propaganda and manipulation have brought us here. OGBuzz May 17 #10
You can say that again. yardwork May 17 #14
You're saying it becase you imagine that it serves your agenda. Orrex May 17 #41
Seems like every country needs to have a focal point to hate BeneteauBum May 17 #15
Israel has plenty of reason to fear their neighbors. yardwork May 17 #17
Basically I agree with you BeneteauBum May 17 #40
I agree with this post. yardwork May 17 #46
For them, the end justifies the means. AloeVera May 17 #18
Are you quoting Hamas? yardwork May 17 #20
You can't just "disagree" with a genocide. AloeVera May 17 #42
I think that you and I have different personalities. yardwork May 17 #48
Don't be too sure of that! AloeVera May 17 #51
Not everyone BlueWaveNeverEnd May 17 #26
Its also American terrorism SSJVegeta May 17 #27
Bigotry, willful ignorance, cognitive dissonance, disingenuousness, motivated reasoning, etc. RockRaven May 17 #30
"Israel has plenty of reason to fear their neighbors." J_William_Ryan May 17 #34
What do you think would be an appropriate way TBF May 17 #50
Before the massacre, thousands of Palestinians were being held w/o charges, questionseverything May 17 #54
Nice evasion but I'm curious - who started the fire? TBF May 17 #55
so u believe everything u read in the nyt now? mopinko May 17 #56
There are pictures, there's victim testimony, there's ashamed Isreal guards testimony questionseverything May 17 #57
Nothing will be enough. AloeVera May 17 #59
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Israel/Palestine»I don't understand why pe...»Reply #51